New Post
Search
Help
ArchivesPoll: Civil Names and Personal Names
What do you think of government legislation declaring that all children be given two sets of names at birth -- "civil" first and middle names, and "personal" first and middle names?
The civil names would be mandatory, and would be names taken from an "approved" government list of commonly recognized names (for the nation in which one resides) with standardized spellings. These names would be used for all dealings with government agencies, public educational institutions, health insurance providers, etc. The civil names would also be used in the business world when the child is grown.
The personal names would be optional, and could be any fanciful, esthetically pleasing, ethnic and/or religious name which the parents choose to bestow upon their child, and would be used by family and friends, and for religious purposes. The personal names may also be used in the literary or artistic world, when the child is grown.
Can anyone see any advantages to this system? Disadvantages? Would this solve problems, or create problems? Cut down on confusion (in using standardized spellings for the civil names), or create confusion (in having dual sets of names)?
Would this dual-name system be a sensible compromise to spare children the embarrassment of having dumb names imposed on them by their parents...
Or would the dual-name system be a smokescreen allowing government to take away our rights to use the names we like best in all aspects of our lives?
-- Nanaea
The civil names would be mandatory, and would be names taken from an "approved" government list of commonly recognized names (for the nation in which one resides) with standardized spellings. These names would be used for all dealings with government agencies, public educational institutions, health insurance providers, etc. The civil names would also be used in the business world when the child is grown.
The personal names would be optional, and could be any fanciful, esthetically pleasing, ethnic and/or religious name which the parents choose to bestow upon their child, and would be used by family and friends, and for religious purposes. The personal names may also be used in the literary or artistic world, when the child is grown.
Can anyone see any advantages to this system? Disadvantages? Would this solve problems, or create problems? Cut down on confusion (in using standardized spellings for the civil names), or create confusion (in having dual sets of names)?
Would this dual-name system be a sensible compromise to spare children the embarrassment of having dumb names imposed on them by their parents...
Or would the dual-name system be a smokescreen allowing government to take away our rights to use the names we like best in all aspects of our lives?
-- Nanaea
1
Replies
My name has definitley evolved over the years. My cousin was a year old when I was born, and could not say "Nicole" so she called me "Cole". My brother had a similar problem when he learned to talk, only he managed to say "uh-Cole". I was Nicole in school and at home, once my brother learned to talk. In junior high I was Nicky one year and Suzanne the next (Suzanne is my first name but my parents always have called me by my shorter middle name). Finally in high school, my name I go by now was born. While my teachers called me Nicole, my friends began calling me 'Cole after confusion with another Nicole in our clique arose. She said "Hey, lets just cut the name in half; I'll be Ni', and you be 'Cole." The name stuck. My brother still calls me this simply because it's easy, but my parents call me Nicole.
As for advantages and disadvantages to "civil" and "personal" names, I have to agree with I beleive it was Davidh, who said that our social security numbers are already our "civil" names. While I do see how it could benefit children whose parents give them names they do not like, I think an "approved" list of names would cause problems in places like school where a teacher could be faced with 12 Jennifers and 9 Williams, or even 2 Nicoles. I do however like the idea of teen name changes and early adulthood name changes someone suggested. I can see how that would work very well.
As for advantages and disadvantages to "civil" and "personal" names, I have to agree with I beleive it was Davidh, who said that our social security numbers are already our "civil" names. While I do see how it could benefit children whose parents give them names they do not like, I think an "approved" list of names would cause problems in places like school where a teacher could be faced with 12 Jennifers and 9 Williams, or even 2 Nicoles. I do however like the idea of teen name changes and early adulthood name changes someone suggested. I can see how that would work very well.
1
Nan, it would be kinda weird. Especially because of ethnic differences in naming convention. (Like Chinese names, for example...)
(Yes, I would be miffed. Besides, if someone wanted an artistic name they'd get an alias.)
Jonathan Ng
(Yes, I would be miffed. Besides, if someone wanted an artistic name they'd get an alias.)
Jonathan Ng
1
In a way we already have "civil" names, in the digital form of a Social Security number. Like it or not, it's the way virtually all government entities document us. In this regard, I doubt whether the government gives a dayum whether we have a "name" or not.
It's repressive and intrusive for the government or anyone else to dictate what names or spellings should be used for babies, altho one could reasonably argue that some parents merit sterilization (spontaneously conducted by a community posse)for the abuse of this naming privilege.
Many cultures have had a "coming of age" name change, and perhaps we should provide for youths at 12-13 and later as young adults at 19-21 to get a freebie name change if they so desire. (Few 22 year olds would want to live with a name they thought desirable at age 12, but the option for a junior high name change would spare them some adolescent cruelty.)
I guess what really surprises me is how many people have really shitty names, think so themselves, and STILL persist in suffering and using them their whole lives.
- Da.
It's repressive and intrusive for the government or anyone else to dictate what names or spellings should be used for babies, altho one could reasonably argue that some parents merit sterilization (spontaneously conducted by a community posse)for the abuse of this naming privilege.
Many cultures have had a "coming of age" name change, and perhaps we should provide for youths at 12-13 and later as young adults at 19-21 to get a freebie name change if they so desire. (Few 22 year olds would want to live with a name they thought desirable at age 12, but the option for a junior high name change would spare them some adolescent cruelty.)
I guess what really surprises me is how many people have really shitty names, think so themselves, and STILL persist in suffering and using them their whole lives.
- Da.
1
"Many cultures have had a "coming of age" name change, and perhaps we should provide for youths at 12-13 and later as young adults at 19-21 to get a freebie name change if they so desire. (Few 22 year olds would want to live with a name they thought desirable at age 12, but the option for a junior high name change would spare them some adolescent cruelty.)"
**** That sounds to me like the most practical solution I've yet heard, for children who may have been given unmanageable names by their parents.
Speaking from personal experience, I changed my own name from "Nanaea" to "Nan" when I entered college. Nowadays, though, I find myself going back to using "Nanaea" again, and I appreciate it more now than I did when I was a teen.
I wonder how many other people there are, who go full circle with their given names -- changing them to something they find more manageable for their business or social dealings, only to come back to the original form of their given name later in life.
What's your story, Daivid? I remember you once posted that your mom had registered you for school as "David". Are you finding now that you appreciate your original given name of "Daividh" more?
-- Nanaea
**** That sounds to me like the most practical solution I've yet heard, for children who may have been given unmanageable names by their parents.
Speaking from personal experience, I changed my own name from "Nanaea" to "Nan" when I entered college. Nowadays, though, I find myself going back to using "Nanaea" again, and I appreciate it more now than I did when I was a teen.
I wonder how many other people there are, who go full circle with their given names -- changing them to something they find more manageable for their business or social dealings, only to come back to the original form of their given name later in life.
What's your story, Daivid? I remember you once posted that your mom had registered you for school as "David". Are you finding now that you appreciate your original given name of "Daividh" more?
-- Nanaea
1
Yeah, one of the benefits of putting on a few decades is you don't pay as much attention to what other people think. "Fitting in" becomes less of a big deal. So today I'm grateful to have a name which means something in the context of my family and our traditional culture, rather than just bein snarfed out of a baby book or off the telly.
I was sheltered from a lot of the nasty stuff because my dad (the childhood victim of a highly tauntible name)insisted they "normalize" my name in school. It took some years after high school to use the right spelling in ANY context. As I once mentioned, today I still use the "David" spelling under some circumstances where it's too much of a hassle to keep correctin people.
Maturity (what little I have) also brought an appreciation of the ethnicity that led to the name. When you're young, you don't want to hear the Auld Country tales, and you just wish your family spoke with a nondescript accent like everyone else.
But would I willingly have struggled thru 12 years of school with the "Daividh" moniker hung out front for all those a-holes to see? It's very doubtful.
I was sheltered from a lot of the nasty stuff because my dad (the childhood victim of a highly tauntible name)insisted they "normalize" my name in school. It took some years after high school to use the right spelling in ANY context. As I once mentioned, today I still use the "David" spelling under some circumstances where it's too much of a hassle to keep correctin people.
Maturity (what little I have) also brought an appreciation of the ethnicity that led to the name. When you're young, you don't want to hear the Auld Country tales, and you just wish your family spoke with a nondescript accent like everyone else.
But would I willingly have struggled thru 12 years of school with the "Daividh" moniker hung out front for all those a-holes to see? It's very doubtful.
1
I have a name that I've heard prounounced in two different ways. My mother pronounces it Care-ah. Now that I'm older I choose to pronounce it Car-ah (as in the automobile)usually when meeting new people. I started doing this my junior year of High school. I just prefer the sound because it's less like Carrie and more exotic in my opinion. I like the fact that my name has some flexibility.
I don't know if I'll ever go back to the old way completely. There might be a chance that I'll "come full circle" eventually. I don't hate the way my mother pronounces it now although I use to because it seemed so boring.
All through high school, I went by the name FiFi to my friends. Those I still keep in contact with continue to use it. I always thought it was a cute name. It's one that I'd never choose as a given name but I like it for a nickname. I've sort of backed away from it though. I don't mind it being used but I don't introduce myself with it anymore.
So, in that sense I suppose you could say that I did come full circle. I choose a new name to go by (FiFi) and eventually went back to my given one although I vary how I pronounce it from time to time.
I don't know if I'll ever go back to the old way completely. There might be a chance that I'll "come full circle" eventually. I don't hate the way my mother pronounces it now although I use to because it seemed so boring.
All through high school, I went by the name FiFi to my friends. Those I still keep in contact with continue to use it. I always thought it was a cute name. It's one that I'd never choose as a given name but I like it for a nickname. I've sort of backed away from it though. I don't mind it being used but I don't introduce myself with it anymore.
So, in that sense I suppose you could say that I did come full circle. I choose a new name to go by (FiFi) and eventually went back to my given one although I vary how I pronounce it from time to time.
1
Different dialects Cara...
pronouncing a name Car-ah, would be the scottish celtic form of the name
Care-ah would be the old english form
~Silver
pronouncing a name Car-ah, would be the scottish celtic form of the name
Care-ah would be the old english form
~Silver
1
This is the reason I named my daughter Amanda. It can be shortened for her youth and then as she matures she can choose to go by Amands which is very feminine and strong sounding or not. But I do feel so sorry for kids like her playmate named Bertha. I think she should shoot her mother in her sleep. Does anyone have any stats on mass murderers who did not ike their names?
1
...and guess what: I bet Bertha would definitely make it in a government-sanctioned "official list" :P
1
- Freedom is a basic human virtue.
- Governments are excremental managers.
Ergo, such a rule reeks of burning flesh.
I grew up in a country where, up to 1987, the state (which was effectively controlled by the Orthodox Church) did not allow the use of names that had no associated Christian saints. Had my daughter been born prior to 1987, I would have been forbidden to legally name her Nephele (unless I produced documents to the authorities proving that I was a non-Orthodox Christian, a Muslim or a Jew -- other religions were not recognized). I can therefore never condone the use of "kosher name lists" to any authorities.
If a child is given a controversial name (by parents with poor taste) he/she can always be able to legally change it as an adult.
- Governments are excremental managers.
Ergo, such a rule reeks of burning flesh.
I grew up in a country where, up to 1987, the state (which was effectively controlled by the Orthodox Church) did not allow the use of names that had no associated Christian saints. Had my daughter been born prior to 1987, I would have been forbidden to legally name her Nephele (unless I produced documents to the authorities proving that I was a non-Orthodox Christian, a Muslim or a Jew -- other religions were not recognized). I can therefore never condone the use of "kosher name lists" to any authorities.
If a child is given a controversial name (by parents with poor taste) he/she can always be able to legally change it as an adult.
1
"I grew up in a country where, up to 1987, the state (which was effectively controlled by the Orthodox Church) did not allow the use of names that had no associated Christian saints."
****** See, I don't think a whole lot of Americans realize that this was pretty much the norm for practically all European countries until very recently. Here in America we're fortunate to be living in a country which guarantees the individual's freedom from religious control -- the separation of Church and State.
I think it's pretty hard for many Americans to imagine a government which can dictate something as basic as what one can or cannot name one's own child.
-- Nanaea
****** See, I don't think a whole lot of Americans realize that this was pretty much the norm for practically all European countries until very recently. Here in America we're fortunate to be living in a country which guarantees the individual's freedom from religious control -- the separation of Church and State.
I think it's pretty hard for many Americans to imagine a government which can dictate something as basic as what one can or cannot name one's own child.
-- Nanaea
1
Bloody comformists, I thought they are saying to celebrate uniquness and difference, rather then supress it, HYPOCRITES!
I am sure you brillant people have heard of the global village theory.
I think this is just another push by those lazy burocrates to drive us into conformity, posing it as equality, so they can still preach diveristy.
This way they dont step on as many toes, and brain wash the younger generations, so they grow up accostomed to not being able to think fully forthemselves.
This is a direct violation of the rights and freedoms acts, and I KNOW it would start major rights should they push such a bill.
Its disgraceful to our intellect to even mention such revolting attrocity against human culture.
I am disgusted personally, and will fight it to the enth degree using the words put up in the acts that uphold such first class countries.
I know the UN sumit would not hear of it.
But for now, I am in canada, so I'm ok!
~Silver
I am sure you brillant people have heard of the global village theory.
I think this is just another push by those lazy burocrates to drive us into conformity, posing it as equality, so they can still preach diveristy.
This way they dont step on as many toes, and brain wash the younger generations, so they grow up accostomed to not being able to think fully forthemselves.
This is a direct violation of the rights and freedoms acts, and I KNOW it would start major rights should they push such a bill.
Its disgraceful to our intellect to even mention such revolting attrocity against human culture.
I am disgusted personally, and will fight it to the enth degree using the words put up in the acts that uphold such first class countries.
I know the UN sumit would not hear of it.
But for now, I am in canada, so I'm ok!
~Silver
1
It's okay, Silver. This was just a hypothetical situation. :)
1
Spot-on, never take your freedom for granted.....
1
Another thing (kinda off of Oh, Greek One's postings)...
My mother, up until she was 45 or 50, legally was "unnamed" according to her birth certificate. Her parents (may they rest in peace) couldn't agree on an English (American) name, but she had her Hebrew name all of her life. Quite a number of her friends "Down South" still call her "Sister" and (going off on a tangent here) she had to go through the Courts so that she would legally be Harriette.
Around the time she was growing up, there was an illegal adoption ring headed by a social worker and a judge. I don't know off the top of my head how many children were quasi-legally removed from their parents and adopted out. If I have it correctly, there are still families finding out htat they are related by birth who were separated by these people.
Even weirder, some of the things I've come across during my research concerning the "Others" (non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust). :shakes head in disbelief:. Does anybody want a government official like that in charge of his/her country's children's names? Or, after the end of WWII, Joseph McCarthy, junior senetor from Wisconsin and leader of the "witchhunters" seeking out "the Red menace".
My head's swimming in the "facts" surrounding all of my research. Sorry.
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
My mother, up until she was 45 or 50, legally was "unnamed" according to her birth certificate. Her parents (may they rest in peace) couldn't agree on an English (American) name, but she had her Hebrew name all of her life. Quite a number of her friends "Down South" still call her "Sister" and (going off on a tangent here) she had to go through the Courts so that she would legally be Harriette.
Around the time she was growing up, there was an illegal adoption ring headed by a social worker and a judge. I don't know off the top of my head how many children were quasi-legally removed from their parents and adopted out. If I have it correctly, there are still families finding out htat they are related by birth who were separated by these people.
Even weirder, some of the things I've come across during my research concerning the "Others" (non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust). :shakes head in disbelief:. Does anybody want a government official like that in charge of his/her country's children's names? Or, after the end of WWII, Joseph McCarthy, junior senetor from Wisconsin and leader of the "witchhunters" seeking out "the Red menace".
My head's swimming in the "facts" surrounding all of my research. Sorry.
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
1