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ArchivesRe: Spanish brothers
in reply to a message by Justina
I don't know what happened but that should be Pena, with a tilde over the 'n'.
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Replies
Justina, that wiggly line is not called a "tilde"
A "tilde" is an oblique straight line used to indicate that the vowel which holds it must be pronounced with certain emphasis which, althought I'm a Spanish-speaker, my ear has quite a great problem discerning... The line in question is not a minor modification on the "n" in the same way that the "O" is not a letter upon which the line in "Q" (visualize the small "" added to the "O" for most fonts; I particularly find this font's "Q" faulty... But it does not affects the point I'm making) makes a minor difference... In other words... The "ñ" and the "n" are letters as different as "m" and "n" as "w", "v", "b" and "f" or as "s", "z", "c", "ç", "o" and "q". It stands for the Latin "nn" and for the Italian "gn" sounding sort of like "ni" or "ny" with the "i/y" sound submissively mingled into the "n" sound. It's not a change of emphazis; it's a change of general pronunciation, ethymological derivation (derives from latin roots with "nn" instead of "n" like in "anno" and "ano"), meaning, etc. The "tilde" looks like a smaller version of the "/" the line over the "Ñ" is: "~". (Sorry for being... Pesky?)
A "tilde" is an oblique straight line used to indicate that the vowel which holds it must be pronounced with certain emphasis which, althought I'm a Spanish-speaker, my ear has quite a great problem discerning... The line in question is not a minor modification on the "n" in the same way that the "O" is not a letter upon which the line in "Q" (visualize the small "" added to the "O" for most fonts; I particularly find this font's "Q" faulty... But it does not affects the point I'm making) makes a minor difference... In other words... The "ñ" and the "n" are letters as different as "m" and "n" as "w", "v", "b" and "f" or as "s", "z", "c", "ç", "o" and "q". It stands for the Latin "nn" and for the Italian "gn" sounding sort of like "ni" or "ny" with the "i/y" sound submissively mingled into the "n" sound. It's not a change of emphazis; it's a change of general pronunciation, ethymological derivation (derives from latin roots with "nn" instead of "n" like in "anno" and "ano"), meaning, etc. The "tilde" looks like a smaller version of the "/" the line over the "Ñ" is: "~". (Sorry for being... Pesky?)
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Thanks for the info, Iris
I'm a native Spanish speaker and I must confess, I had no idea what the ~ sign was called.
I'm a native Spanish speaker and I must confess, I had no idea what the ~ sign was called.
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I'm a native Spanish speaker... It would be true absurdity to call the "~" sign "tilde" for it's place in Spanish language is very much independent from the vowel oriented "´" in "á,é,í,ó,ú".
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Names of various diacritical marks in English
I should note that I usually see the “bar” called a stroke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic#Types_of_diacritic
I should note that I usually see the “bar” called a stroke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic#Types_of_diacritic
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It IS called a tilde
Ñ, decimoquinta letra del alfabeto español. Su nombre es eñe y sólo se usa en español. Su forma procede de la consonante n. La tilde que lleva en la parte superior tiene su origen en la escritura de los copistas medievales, que la emplearon desde el siglo XII como signo escrito sobre una letra y que significaba carácter repetido, es decir, ñ = nn, õ =oo. Dos siglos más tarde este uso quedó restringido para la letra n, e incluso podía sustituir a una y o una m. En el siglo XV, Antonio de Nebrija identificaba esta letra y su sonido como elementos autóctonos en el castellano, por no tener precedente ni en griego, ni en latín, ni en árabe.
( http://www.geocities.com/szbmx/orgendel.htm#— )
tilde (l. titulu, indicio, seña)
1 f. Acento gráfico y rasgo que se pone sobre la ñ o sobre algunas abreviaturas, o signo análogo.
( http://www.diccionarios.com/index2.phtml? )
If you are going to rebate the above, at the very least, show us some information on the ~ sign. What is it called according to you, then? and some information sort , to back it up. Until then, anything else you say will be considered the word of a stubborn person who can't admit to be wrong.
Ñ, decimoquinta letra del alfabeto español. Su nombre es eñe y sólo se usa en español. Su forma procede de la consonante n. La tilde que lleva en la parte superior tiene su origen en la escritura de los copistas medievales, que la emplearon desde el siglo XII como signo escrito sobre una letra y que significaba carácter repetido, es decir, ñ = nn, õ =oo. Dos siglos más tarde este uso quedó restringido para la letra n, e incluso podía sustituir a una y o una m. En el siglo XV, Antonio de Nebrija identificaba esta letra y su sonido como elementos autóctonos en el castellano, por no tener precedente ni en griego, ni en latín, ni en árabe.
( http://www.geocities.com/szbmx/orgendel.htm#— )
tilde (l. titulu, indicio, seña)
1 f. Acento gráfico y rasgo que se pone sobre la ñ o sobre algunas abreviaturas, o signo análogo.
( http://www.diccionarios.com/index2.phtml? )
If you are going to rebate the above, at the very least, show us some information on the ~ sign. What is it called according to you, then? and some information sort , to back it up. Until then, anything else you say will be considered the word of a stubborn person who can't admit to be wrong.
This message was edited 11/12/2004, 8:26 AM
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There seem to be two types of tilde...
The name "la tilde diacrítica" is often used for that accent over vowels. But ~ is also called tilde.
http://www.dat.etsit.upm.es/~mmonjas/acentos.html
The name "la tilde diacrítica" is often used for that accent over vowels. But ~ is also called tilde.
http://www.dat.etsit.upm.es/~mmonjas/acentos.html
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Ok... I do admit my mistakes... But...
It's just that I find it illogical to give a name to the "~" sign... It's like giving a name to the difference between the "P" and the "D" or between the "R" or "B" and the "P" or between the "1", "L", "T" and the "I"... I can accept linguists use that term... Therefore admit it was not wrongly used... But I wont say it's a logical employment of terms. My intention was never against Justina... But against the understanding of "õ" as equivalent to "ó" and extrapolating this to "ñ"... I'm stubborn but no that much as not to admit this mistake and other mistakes... Sorry if anyone felt offended.
It's just that I find it illogical to give a name to the "~" sign... It's like giving a name to the difference between the "P" and the "D" or between the "R" or "B" and the "P" or between the "1", "L", "T" and the "I"... I can accept linguists use that term... Therefore admit it was not wrongly used... But I wont say it's a logical employment of terms. My intention was never against Justina... But against the understanding of "õ" as equivalent to "ó" and extrapolating this to "ñ"... I'm stubborn but no that much as not to admit this mistake and other mistakes... Sorry if anyone felt offended.
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