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HelpRe: Love on a boy (m)
in reply to a message by Somebody random
This isn't a response to what you said here. I just want to further expound on what I said.
I would also want my daughter to be gentle and sweet, but also strong-willed, proud, and self-assertive when the occasion calls for it. And in fact, I don't think that the name I did choose for my daughter, Victoria, is gentle and sweet at all. It seems that when people dislike it, they do so because it's the opposite of gentle and sweet---"icy" and "prickly" is what I hear most.
But even if one does choose a softer and frillier name for a girl, I don't think it's as much of an encumbrance to the woman the girl will grow into being taking seriously than a traditionally feminine name is for the man the boy will grow into. People expect some women to have soft, gentle, and sweet names. They're going to start from the same point whether the name is something very basic and not soft like Joan, or traditionally masculine such as, I don't know, Jason, as they are if the name is Arabella. But since men are expected to have masculine names, I think a traditionally feminine name is going to result in a lot of probably subconscious, and thus more insidious, initial prejudices.
Anyway, there is and always has been a huge disconnect between this board and the real world about giving boys traditionally feminine names. It's fine and dandy to most people here, it seems. That's not the real world. Boys do not want girls' names. It's a burden and a disadvantage. And no, it's not the same burden and disadvantage for a girl to bear a traditionally masculine name, and no, that's not fair, but it's the way it is.
I would also want my daughter to be gentle and sweet, but also strong-willed, proud, and self-assertive when the occasion calls for it. And in fact, I don't think that the name I did choose for my daughter, Victoria, is gentle and sweet at all. It seems that when people dislike it, they do so because it's the opposite of gentle and sweet---"icy" and "prickly" is what I hear most.
But even if one does choose a softer and frillier name for a girl, I don't think it's as much of an encumbrance to the woman the girl will grow into being taking seriously than a traditionally feminine name is for the man the boy will grow into. People expect some women to have soft, gentle, and sweet names. They're going to start from the same point whether the name is something very basic and not soft like Joan, or traditionally masculine such as, I don't know, Jason, as they are if the name is Arabella. But since men are expected to have masculine names, I think a traditionally feminine name is going to result in a lot of probably subconscious, and thus more insidious, initial prejudices.
Anyway, there is and always has been a huge disconnect between this board and the real world about giving boys traditionally feminine names. It's fine and dandy to most people here, it seems. That's not the real world. Boys do not want girls' names. It's a burden and a disadvantage. And no, it's not the same burden and disadvantage for a girl to bear a traditionally masculine name, and no, that's not fair, but it's the way it is.
This message was edited 8/3/2020, 9:18 AM
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"Anyway, there is and always has been a huge disconnect between this board and the real world about giving boys traditionally feminine names. It's fine and dandy to most people here, it seems. That's not the real world. Boys do not want girls' names. It's a burden and a disadvantage. And no, it's not the same burden and disadvantage for a girl to bear a traditionally masculine name, and no, that's not fair, but it's the way it is."
I don't know if I agree with this part, my husband has a name that is unisex but more commonly used on girls. I have known several males who had names that were more common for girls in their generation: Kelly, Kelsey, Ashley, Courtney, Madison, etc. who were all perfectly happy with their names. In fact, I have never met a boy with a girly name who disliked their name. I have found men who are unhappy with their names tend to be because they are A: too common, like Ryan for boys born in the 90's, or B: overtly masculine, like Gary or Wayne.
I have never seen anyone on this board suggest that we should go out and name a little boy "Josephine" but rather that maybe it isn't such a terrible thing to have a boy named "Aubrey" even though its popularity has gone to the girls.
I don't know if I agree with this part, my husband has a name that is unisex but more commonly used on girls. I have known several males who had names that were more common for girls in their generation: Kelly, Kelsey, Ashley, Courtney, Madison, etc. who were all perfectly happy with their names. In fact, I have never met a boy with a girly name who disliked their name. I have found men who are unhappy with their names tend to be because they are A: too common, like Ryan for boys born in the 90's, or B: overtly masculine, like Gary or Wayne.
I have never seen anyone on this board suggest that we should go out and name a little boy "Josephine" but rather that maybe it isn't such a terrible thing to have a boy named "Aubrey" even though its popularity has gone to the girls.
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I'd agree with you too. I think generally men seem to not be as fussed about their names as women and really the only men I've ever heard of complaining about their names were David, Scott and Peter, mainly because there is a huge amount of them.
I have friends with 'girly' names like Courtney, Ashley, Kelly and I even teach a Keeley and none of them have ever seemed to have an issue with it at all. Ashley is a pretty common boys name here in Australia. I also think the big distinction is that none of these are 'girls' names, they were originally mens names and have turned unisex.
I have friends with 'girly' names like Courtney, Ashley, Kelly and I even teach a Keeley and none of them have ever seemed to have an issue with it at all. Ashley is a pretty common boys name here in Australia. I also think the big distinction is that none of these are 'girls' names, they were originally mens names and have turned unisex.
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"I have known several males who had names that were more common for girls in their generation: Kelly, Kelsey, Ashley, Courtney, Madison, etc. who were all perfectly happy with their names. In fact, I have never met a boy with a girly name who disliked their name."
You've exceeded my suspension of disbelief. I have met a man named Ashley. He hated his name. The only male I have heard of name Kelsey is Kelsey Grammar, and he was born before the feminization of Kelsey. I am highly skeptical that you know this many men with the names you listed that were born during the same generation that these names were popular for women. If you really do know a man named Courtney who was born between 1990-1997, did you ask him how he felt about his name or are you assuming?
You've exceeded my suspension of disbelief. I have met a man named Ashley. He hated his name. The only male I have heard of name Kelsey is Kelsey Grammar, and he was born before the feminization of Kelsey. I am highly skeptical that you know this many men with the names you listed that were born during the same generation that these names were popular for women. If you really do know a man named Courtney who was born between 1990-1997, did you ask him how he felt about his name or are you assuming?
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I knew a Leslie in middle school. His only complaint about his name was the hard Z vs. soft S sound in the middle. He had a strong preference for one and it would drive him nuts when somebody used the other. Our science teacher used the “wrong” one all the time, and this normally nice, obedient kid always had huge behavioural problems in that class. I’m not sure if it was forgetfulness, arrogance or trolling on the teacher’s end, but he didn’t seem to even try. But the gendering of Leslie wasn’t a problem.
I went to school with a boy named Kelly Lynn (fn/ln) all through elementary and high school. We ran in different circles, (he was a popular kid) but I do know that he was often embarrassed by his name. I know he attempted suicide after high school. Obviously his name wouldn’t have caused that, but he was often more melancholy about it than angry. Whether that was a symptom of his personality or whether the hated name was a symptom of a disconnect at home, who knows? Probably had nothing to do with it at all.
I also had a high school friend who changed his name from Courtney to Lee when he transitioned FtM. Despite both names being technically unisex he felt Courtney was too feminine. It may also have been about shaking off the past.
I went to school with a boy named Kelly Lynn (fn/ln) all through elementary and high school. We ran in different circles, (he was a popular kid) but I do know that he was often embarrassed by his name. I know he attempted suicide after high school. Obviously his name wouldn’t have caused that, but he was often more melancholy about it than angry. Whether that was a symptom of his personality or whether the hated name was a symptom of a disconnect at home, who knows? Probably had nothing to do with it at all.
I also had a high school friend who changed his name from Courtney to Lee when he transitioned FtM. Despite both names being technically unisex he felt Courtney was too feminine. It may also have been about shaking off the past.
This message was edited 8/4/2020, 6:01 AM
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I say Leslie with a hard Z and it would be a real effort to say it with a soft S. I doubt it was deliberate on the teacher's part, and I doubt it was forgetfulness, arrogance, or trolling. It's just hard to say one little sound differently than you normally do and do that all of the time. The response on the part of Leslie was a ridiculous overreaction.
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If somebody asks you repeatedly to pronounce their name a certain way, I consider it rude not to try.
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yes ...
Especially if it's not a sound foreign to them; like few westerners would pronounce Chinese names exactly as they are pronounced in Chinese, but the s versus z sound should be easy to manage and shouldn't need repeated reminders.
It's about as rude as repeatedly calling someone by a nn when they've asked specifically to be called by another nn or by the full name. It may not be intentional rudeness, but it is rude.
Especially if it's not a sound foreign to them; like few westerners would pronounce Chinese names exactly as they are pronounced in Chinese, but the s versus z sound should be easy to manage and shouldn't need repeated reminders.
It's about as rude as repeatedly calling someone by a nn when they've asked specifically to be called by another nn or by the full name. It may not be intentional rudeness, but it is rude.
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No, this particular instance is silly. My own name can be an example, although I'm not certain how to explain it accurately in type. Most people pronounce the first syllable of my name with the A sound like the A sound in "sand". But a few people, including my own father, pronounce the first syllable with a flatter A sound, like the A sound in "cat". It's a matter of accent, I think, my father said a few other words differently than the rest of the family, such as "rowt" for "route" when the rest of the family said "root". (Although he was from the same area as the rest of us so I don't know why this was so.) It's one little sound, a matter of accent more than anything else. I can just see myself pitching fits at people who use the "cat" syllable and not the "can" syllable.
This message was edited 8/4/2020, 9:10 AM
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My point, though, is that it's one little sound. Not something like "Cynthia" rather than "Cindy" or pronouncing Aisling the correct way as ASH-lyn instead of the way that most Americans would initially think, AYZ-lin. I really think I'd find it impossible to say "LES-lie" rather than "LEZ-lie" on a regular basis. It's like trying to "correct" an accent.
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Yeah, I didn't and I don't want to carry this conversation/argument on ad nauseum, but it's exceed my suspension of disbelief as well.
As I said, huge disconnect.
As I said, huge disconnect.
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Well, nobody will ever fix that if they just follow the trends. Girls with boys names used to be "weird", but now it's trendy or normal (at least for some names). That popularity shift never would have happened without the initial trailblazers naming their daughters something nobody had ever seen on a girl before. In terms of advantages, having a boys name on your resume might get you the job, but once they realize you're a girl you'll still have to deal with sexism. A girls name might make it harder to get the job, but once they realize you're a boy you'll be treated however they treat other boys.
As long as you actually like the name and don't get offended if your kid changes their name, there's no harm in naming your baby whatever you want. It's not like names are permanent anyway. If you realize you want a different name when you start going to school, you can change it unofficially in no time at all (when all you have to do is tell people "I go by [name] now"), and then you'll have plenty of time to change it legally before you need to get a drivers license etc. People talk about names as if they're branded onto you, but there's nothing stopping anyone from changing their name (except maybe saving up for the legal fees depending on where you live and what the rules are). The maximum it could cost is around $400. And you'll have several years to come up with the money before your kid is old enough to need legal ID that you'd need extra money to change after the fact.
As long as you actually like the name and don't get offended if your kid changes their name, there's no harm in naming your baby whatever you want. It's not like names are permanent anyway. If you realize you want a different name when you start going to school, you can change it unofficially in no time at all (when all you have to do is tell people "I go by [name] now"), and then you'll have plenty of time to change it legally before you need to get a drivers license etc. People talk about names as if they're branded onto you, but there's nothing stopping anyone from changing their name (except maybe saving up for the legal fees depending on where you live and what the rules are). The maximum it could cost is around $400. And you'll have several years to come up with the money before your kid is old enough to need legal ID that you'd need extra money to change after the fact.
This message was edited 8/3/2020, 4:15 PM
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