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Helpthat kind of begs the question ...
in reply to a message by mirfak
If I say I think a name is ugly, as opposed to it just not being my style or I don't like it enough to want to use it, to me that means I don't think the name is perfectly nice. I think canned pears are disgusting, but even though I don't care if other people like and eat them (only a neurotic would care) that doesn't mean I think canned pears are a perfectly nice food. I'd eat a perfectly nice food, though I might not seek it out.
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts. -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts. -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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Sometimes it’s nice to buffer your opinions, and realise that they’re not universal and as a result they can offend people if you’re too blunt.
This message was edited 4/10/2018, 1:31 PM
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I wanted to make the point to Rox, that buffering other people's feelings is *not* what I'm doing if I say a name is decent but I hate it. The words "I think" are the acknowledgement that my opinion is just one opinion. "but it's a fine name" is only meant to distinguish my aesthetic response from my opinion of the name as a name.
Rox's analogy to pears is no good, because an emotional reaction to pears won't imply judgment of whether pears are edible food. That'd be over the top. It's like if I say the Kia Soul is an eyesore, that doesn't imply I think it's not adequate as a car. Of course it's fine as a car, and of course canned pears are food.
But if I say Braelyn is ugly, that does imply I think it's bad *as a name.* Because we talk about names here as if one of their functions is to make a subjective impression.
I know I'm taking it too far apart - but I got an impression that Rox was wondering if it's some kind of weasel words to avoid offending people, and I wanted to say it isn't.
Rox's analogy to pears is no good, because an emotional reaction to pears won't imply judgment of whether pears are edible food. That'd be over the top. It's like if I say the Kia Soul is an eyesore, that doesn't imply I think it's not adequate as a car. Of course it's fine as a car, and of course canned pears are food.
But if I say Braelyn is ugly, that does imply I think it's bad *as a name.* Because we talk about names here as if one of their functions is to make a subjective impression.
I know I'm taking it too far apart - but I got an impression that Rox was wondering if it's some kind of weasel words to avoid offending people, and I wanted to say it isn't.
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Sure, sure, but I think it’s kind of nice not to offend people. Opinions don’t need to be stated in a blunt, dogmatic (not quite the right word there) way for them to be valid.
This message was edited 4/10/2018, 2:10 PM
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When I say "I don't like [name], but it's an okay name", it's about the equivalent of me saying "Well, I don't like it, but it's food" by which I would mean that I recognize it functions the way I think food should function (by providing nutrients and energy, without making me sick), even if I don't enjoy eating it...it's not spoiled or poisoned or unhealthy, and it's not something I'm allergic to...I don't perceive anything off about it.
I wouldn't say "it's an okay name" about anything that I'd call OTT or a GP or names that imo don't translate well (like Dong, for example). It's still subjective, but it's a matter of degree, like..."I wouldn't enjoy it" versus "I don't think it'd function well"...I hate the name Grace, but I'd say it's an okay name because I recognize that it functions perfectly well as a name. It's not a name I'd guess people in my culture would perceive as peculiar or offensive or embarrassing.
I wouldn't say "it's an okay name" about anything that I'd call OTT or a GP or names that imo don't translate well (like Dong, for example). It's still subjective, but it's a matter of degree, like..."I wouldn't enjoy it" versus "I don't think it'd function well"...I hate the name Grace, but I'd say it's an okay name because I recognize that it functions perfectly well as a name. It's not a name I'd guess people in my culture would perceive as peculiar or offensive or embarrassing.
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But, names aren't like canned pears!
On a name opinions board, when I say, "I think Braelyn is ugly," I don't know if there are any Braelyns reading, or family members or parents of Braelyns. I'm prepared that at least some people out there will take me to mean that I judge the name Braelyn to be a bad name for a person because it's so ugly. Yes, that's pretty much what I think about it - so they'll have to cope with that. It's a name opinions board after all.
If I say Bridget is ugly, I may add that I think it's perfectly nice. For my own purposes - not to save people's feelings, but to be clear about what kind of statement I'm making. My personal impression doesn't always match up with my opinion about the quality of a name.
If I say I think a name is ugly, period, that obviously means it's not to my taste. But it's not like saying "canned pears are disgusting," because foods are not personal the way names are. They're not selected in a personal way, so they aren't connected to people who choose them. So I'm not communicating the exact same kind of thing when I say I think a food is disgusting, as I do when I say a name is ugly.
Saying a "I think [name] is ugly" on this board, is more like saying "I think canned pears are disgusting" just as the hostess is surprising everyone with a pear dessert, which might have been made with canned pears. You might want to distinguish between your personal disgust for canned pears, and your disgust for your hostess's baking and everyone who consumes it.
If you really think canned pears are so disgusting that they're generally unfit for consumption, you'd just let your comment stand, and not care - same as if it were a dessert made from garden slugs, and you'd just said slugs are disgusting. Because that's really your opinion. "Your kid's name is ugly, and your slug tart is disgusting. Both are very bad ideas."
If you wanted to be clear you weren't expressing disgust at your hostess's efforts, you might add "well canned pears may be fine for you all, but I personally find them disgusting to eat so, no thanks."
(I think the fact that Maile is a Hawaiian name might also be a reason for qualifying the opinion that it's ugly. I sometimes think a foreign name is unappealing, but I would not want to give anyone the impression that I thought it was unappealing just because it was foreign.)
On a name opinions board, when I say, "I think Braelyn is ugly," I don't know if there are any Braelyns reading, or family members or parents of Braelyns. I'm prepared that at least some people out there will take me to mean that I judge the name Braelyn to be a bad name for a person because it's so ugly. Yes, that's pretty much what I think about it - so they'll have to cope with that. It's a name opinions board after all.
If I say Bridget is ugly, I may add that I think it's perfectly nice. For my own purposes - not to save people's feelings, but to be clear about what kind of statement I'm making. My personal impression doesn't always match up with my opinion about the quality of a name.
If I say I think a name is ugly, period, that obviously means it's not to my taste. But it's not like saying "canned pears are disgusting," because foods are not personal the way names are. They're not selected in a personal way, so they aren't connected to people who choose them. So I'm not communicating the exact same kind of thing when I say I think a food is disgusting, as I do when I say a name is ugly.
Saying a "I think [name] is ugly" on this board, is more like saying "I think canned pears are disgusting" just as the hostess is surprising everyone with a pear dessert, which might have been made with canned pears. You might want to distinguish between your personal disgust for canned pears, and your disgust for your hostess's baking and everyone who consumes it.
If you really think canned pears are so disgusting that they're generally unfit for consumption, you'd just let your comment stand, and not care - same as if it were a dessert made from garden slugs, and you'd just said slugs are disgusting. Because that's really your opinion. "Your kid's name is ugly, and your slug tart is disgusting. Both are very bad ideas."
If you wanted to be clear you weren't expressing disgust at your hostess's efforts, you might add "well canned pears may be fine for you all, but I personally find them disgusting to eat so, no thanks."
(I think the fact that Maile is a Hawaiian name might also be a reason for qualifying the opinion that it's ugly. I sometimes think a foreign name is unappealing, but I would not want to give anyone the impression that I thought it was unappealing just because it was foreign.)
This message was edited 4/9/2018, 11:08 PM
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Agreed.
I offer opinions like the ones Rox is questioning often and for the same reasons that you do. I do not do it to avoid being offensive and I usually offer them more when someone else is really considering a name for a real child or it's a BA.
Sometimes I find a name that is aesthetically pleasing to me to be an objectively bad name. For example, I think the sound of Nevaeh is very pretty but it's a terrible name for a human. I love the name Bridget but while I don't find the sound ugly like mirfak does, it isn't a beautiful sounding name and I can understand why someone would find that sound 'ugly'. Or then there are names that I find very ugly, like Zoe, but I recognize that is subjective and if someone is asking for opinions on a name that may influence whether or not they use it in real life, they are probably looking for associations or any objective objections to the name...unless of course the name is considered 'ugly' by almost every commenter and then maybe that it is widely considered to be aesthetically unpleasing could be a point against it.
I offer opinions like the ones Rox is questioning often and for the same reasons that you do. I do not do it to avoid being offensive and I usually offer them more when someone else is really considering a name for a real child or it's a BA.
Sometimes I find a name that is aesthetically pleasing to me to be an objectively bad name. For example, I think the sound of Nevaeh is very pretty but it's a terrible name for a human. I love the name Bridget but while I don't find the sound ugly like mirfak does, it isn't a beautiful sounding name and I can understand why someone would find that sound 'ugly'. Or then there are names that I find very ugly, like Zoe, but I recognize that is subjective and if someone is asking for opinions on a name that may influence whether or not they use it in real life, they are probably looking for associations or any objective objections to the name...unless of course the name is considered 'ugly' by almost every commenter and then maybe that it is widely considered to be aesthetically unpleasing could be a point against it.
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