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HelpOddly enough, that's exactly why!
in reply to a message by Cayden
As long as it's unacceptable socially for boys to get names that are feminine, I'm a little iffy for it being okay the other way around. It just doesn't feel right. It's like it's okay for a girl to aspire being boyish, because that's better, but not okay for a boy to aspire being girlish, because that's worse.
And this is as a proud mom of a girl who also has building toys and cars etc. along with her dolls. If she ever has a brother, he'd have dolls and pink toys along with his trucks and toys with other colours. But he'd have a male name, just as she has a female name (Elva Roxanna Philippa), because it's okay for a boy to be a boy and girl to be a girl.
And this is as a proud mom of a girl who also has building toys and cars etc. along with her dolls. If she ever has a brother, he'd have dolls and pink toys along with his trucks and toys with other colours. But he'd have a male name, just as she has a female name (Elva Roxanna Philippa), because it's okay for a boy to be a boy and girl to be a girl.
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well said
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Totally agree with your premises but kind of came to the opposite conclusion.
It's like clothes: girls wearing pants is more popular than boys wearing dresses, but that doesn't mean girls shouldn't wear pants; it means boys should wear dresses more often so that it doesn't look "weird" to people. It's also like popular bands, movies, etc. Just because it's popular doesn't mean you can't like it for itself. Masculinity is culturally valued more than femininity, but if you like masculine things for themselves (not just because they're popular), you shouldn't have to pretend you don't. There's no shame in genuinely liking something popular, as long as you like it independently of its popularity and also have no shame in liking something unpopular.
That said, I don't like George on a girl at all! But I do think you should choose a name by the sound and overall feel. I also think some boy names (that have never been commonly used for girls) are feminine without being typical "girl names" and vice versa. When I think of "masculine" and "feminine", it's not just about whether the name is a "girls name" or a "boys name". Plenty of names are neither feminine nor masculine without being strictly unisex names.
(examples: I think Astrid is masculine, Silas is feminine, and Conor is neither. But Astrid is definitely a girls name while Silas and Conor are definitely boys names. Some names just have qualities that I percieve as masculine or feminine.)
In practice, neutral is better since you want the name you pick to fit your baby's personality and you don't know if they're particularly masculine or feminine when they're born. But just on principle, you can have any name without reading that much into it. Having a boy name doesn't mean you're trying to be a boy. You can be a girl with a "boy name" just like you can be a girl and wear "boy clothes" (and both of those things are different from a masculine "girl name" and masculine "girl clothes"). I can wear a regular T-shirt, not a "girly" one from the girls section of the store, without people saying I'm trying to be a boy. So why would a name be any different?
It's like clothes: girls wearing pants is more popular than boys wearing dresses, but that doesn't mean girls shouldn't wear pants; it means boys should wear dresses more often so that it doesn't look "weird" to people. It's also like popular bands, movies, etc. Just because it's popular doesn't mean you can't like it for itself. Masculinity is culturally valued more than femininity, but if you like masculine things for themselves (not just because they're popular), you shouldn't have to pretend you don't. There's no shame in genuinely liking something popular, as long as you like it independently of its popularity and also have no shame in liking something unpopular.
That said, I don't like George on a girl at all! But I do think you should choose a name by the sound and overall feel. I also think some boy names (that have never been commonly used for girls) are feminine without being typical "girl names" and vice versa. When I think of "masculine" and "feminine", it's not just about whether the name is a "girls name" or a "boys name". Plenty of names are neither feminine nor masculine without being strictly unisex names.
(examples: I think Astrid is masculine, Silas is feminine, and Conor is neither. But Astrid is definitely a girls name while Silas and Conor are definitely boys names. Some names just have qualities that I percieve as masculine or feminine.)
In practice, neutral is better since you want the name you pick to fit your baby's personality and you don't know if they're particularly masculine or feminine when they're born. But just on principle, you can have any name without reading that much into it. Having a boy name doesn't mean you're trying to be a boy. You can be a girl with a "boy name" just like you can be a girl and wear "boy clothes" (and both of those things are different from a masculine "girl name" and masculine "girl clothes"). I can wear a regular T-shirt, not a "girly" one from the girls section of the store, without people saying I'm trying to be a boy. So why would a name be any different?
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So why would a name be any different?...
One crucial difference is that you decide on a name for another person.
Clothes you can pick out for yourself after a certain age. Changing a name is harder and in some places not possible at all.
One crucial difference is that you decide on a name for another person.
Clothes you can pick out for yourself after a certain age. Changing a name is harder and in some places not possible at all.
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Agreed, and a bit more rambling on gender
Agreed completely.
I’m actually really glad that I don’t have an overly feminine name, because it wouldn’t have fit me at all and would have probably ended in me changing it or using initials. I’m “female” but definitely lean more toward the masculine; kind of see myself as non-binary, actually.
Our society’s standards on male femininity are really messed up, and I’m all for using “girl names” on boys (someone mentioned Astrid, which I think would work on a boy). That doesn’t mean that masculinity shouldn’t be allowed for girls/women though, because enforcing traditional femininity is still a step backwards IMO and doesn’t get us any closer to gender liberation.
Totally realize I’m rambling, and I know I’m biased by my own gender non-conformity. Most people are totally or at least mostly okay with traditional gender norms. It’s just a perspective that doesn’t get shared much, so it seemed worth sharing.
Agreed completely.
I’m actually really glad that I don’t have an overly feminine name, because it wouldn’t have fit me at all and would have probably ended in me changing it or using initials. I’m “female” but definitely lean more toward the masculine; kind of see myself as non-binary, actually.
Our society’s standards on male femininity are really messed up, and I’m all for using “girl names” on boys (someone mentioned Astrid, which I think would work on a boy). That doesn’t mean that masculinity shouldn’t be allowed for girls/women though, because enforcing traditional femininity is still a step backwards IMO and doesn’t get us any closer to gender liberation.
Totally realize I’m rambling, and I know I’m biased by my own gender non-conformity. Most people are totally or at least mostly okay with traditional gender norms. It’s just a perspective that doesn’t get shared much, so it seemed worth sharing.
This message was edited 3/7/2018, 9:08 PM
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I don't think anyone is saying that women/girls need to adhere to femininity, only that if they choose to their femininity should not be seen as any lesser than masculinity.
By the way this is coming from someone who identifies as more masculine, and I'm a woman. I'm not very feminine at all at least in the outward sense of being interested in makeup and clothes, but I hate it when I see more feminine women get torn down or devalued because they do like to be feminine.
By the way this is coming from someone who identifies as more masculine, and I'm a woman. I'm not very feminine at all at least in the outward sense of being interested in makeup and clothes, but I hate it when I see more feminine women get torn down or devalued because they do like to be feminine.
This message was edited 3/8/2018, 8:34 AM
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YES!
This is exactly my reasoning!
Even names that are originally male are now written out because for fear they might sound girly.. as if that is such a terrible thing.
Women can be strong and powerful, but men must never seem feminine or soft.
This is exactly my reasoning!
Even names that are originally male are now written out because for fear they might sound girly.. as if that is such a terrible thing.
Women can be strong and powerful, but men must never seem feminine or soft.
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But that just means that boys' names need more freedom, not that girls' names need less!
I say girls should take advantage of the freedom they have to use any kind of name, and boys should also use any kind of name because they should have the same amount of freedom.
I say girls should take advantage of the freedom they have to use any kind of name, and boys should also use any kind of name because they should have the same amount of freedom.
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This is fine, but we don't live in a world yet where it's the case that girl names are used on boys nearly as frequently as boy names are used on girls. Until that happens when a boy name is used on girls it reinforces the perception that masculinity is the ideal and femininity is devalued.
This message was edited 3/8/2018, 8:35 AM
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Yep, exactly my point.
It's so completely different standards. You can't even use a name that is originally male without copping so much crap.
I knew a boy named Madison and he gets horrible comments from everyone, even random strangers who will even ask if he is gay or transgendered..
But a girl named Kyle, Beau, Finlay or James, gets compliments on her 'strong' name.
As if femininity is a bad thing.. or to be remotely 'girly' is bad.
It's so completely different standards. You can't even use a name that is originally male without copping so much crap.
I knew a boy named Madison and he gets horrible comments from everyone, even random strangers who will even ask if he is gay or transgendered..
But a girl named Kyle, Beau, Finlay or James, gets compliments on her 'strong' name.
As if femininity is a bad thing.. or to be remotely 'girly' is bad.
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Agreed completely
Agreed completely.
Agreed completely.
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