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HelpWhat's your opinion on the traditional spellings of Irish names?
I was curious about what people think of the traditional spellings of Irish names. Names like Sean are common enough that most people know how to pronounce it, but there are other names that I been looking at recently, that aren't easy to pronounce.
For example:
Aoibheann (EE-van)
Sadhbh (SIEV)
Siobhan (shi-VAWN)
Aoife (EE-fa)
Niamh (NEEV)
Caoimhe (KEE-va)
Ruaidhri(ROR-ee)
Part of me is really discouraged that I have no idea how to say them when I see them. But I also think that they are really beautiful ways to spell names that I wouldn't normally like.
What do you feel?
Also, as an writer, I'd love to know how you'd feel if you were reading a story with one (or more) names like this. Would it be irritating? Would you not mind if there was a pronunciation guide? Would you like it?
For example:
Aoibheann (EE-van)
Sadhbh (SIEV)
Siobhan (shi-VAWN)
Aoife (EE-fa)
Niamh (NEEV)
Caoimhe (KEE-va)
Ruaidhri(ROR-ee)
Part of me is really discouraged that I have no idea how to say them when I see them. But I also think that they are really beautiful ways to spell names that I wouldn't normally like.
What do you feel?
Also, as an writer, I'd love to know how you'd feel if you were reading a story with one (or more) names like this. Would it be irritating? Would you not mind if there was a pronunciation guide? Would you like it?
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Replies
With alot of my family being irish (ive never lived there though) i love these names
Aoibheann (EE-van) - nice
Sadhbh (SIEV) - ok
Siobhan (shi-VAWN)- know loads of people called that from when i was at school
Aoife (EE-fa)- i love this name
Niamh (NEEV) - love it agian, this name is becoming very popular in my daughters class there are 3 Niamh's and know of alot more its a really nice name
Caoimhe (KEE-va)- again love it
Ruaidhri(ROR-ee)- alright
Aoibheann (EE-van) - nice
Sadhbh (SIEV) - ok
Siobhan (shi-VAWN)- know loads of people called that from when i was at school
Aoife (EE-fa)- i love this name
Niamh (NEEV) - love it agian, this name is becoming very popular in my daughters class there are 3 Niamh's and know of alot more its a really nice name
Caoimhe (KEE-va)- again love it
Ruaidhri(ROR-ee)- alright
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The purist in me wants to stick with the original spellings, however, with Irish names, the original spellings often don't resemble anything like the way the name is actually pronounced. So while I'm content to stick with the way Ciara and Cian are spelled, other names like Maeve and Aidan look right to me. I can't imagine Medb going through life forever correcting people.
Having said all that, I have realized that once I've learned the basics of Irish names, it does get easier and I can pretty much figure out how to pronounce new names. That still doesn't change the problem of everyone else learning the same ...
Having said all that, I have realized that once I've learned the basics of Irish names, it does get easier and I can pretty much figure out how to pronounce new names. That still doesn't change the problem of everyone else learning the same ...
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I LOVE the sound of these Irish names but I would never use any of them because NO ONE would know how they're pronounced and I just wouldn't want to put my child through like with that hanging over their heads, lol. The only one I knew how to pronounce is Siobhan and that's only because I knew one in high school way back when!
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In a novel, I think it's best if you maybe try to seamlessly hint at the pronunciation without disrupting the story. For example, something like "Niamh's sister was named Eve - clearly the rhyme didn't bother their parents" - OK, that was a terrible example, but I'm not a writer! Or have another character mispronounce the name, and get them to sound it out - e.g." "Cah-oym...hee?" he read out. Caoimhe sighed and told him for the second time: "It's Kee-va. Kee-va.". "
However, if you're writing a story peopled entirely by Irish characters and place names and so on, perhaps it is best to have a glossary at the back. It would be irritating not having a clue what any of the characters were really called.
As for which I prefer, I sometimes feel, like you, that the spelling adds something to a name I wouldn't usually like - e.g., I love Niamh, but Neve does nothing for me. Orlaith is stunning, whereas Orla is quite blah. Sean is handsome, but Shaun is ugly. It totally depends though - there are some Irish spellings that I find really unattractive. For example, I love the sound "Ashleen" but dislike Aislin. And I hate anything that ends in "gh"!
However, if you're writing a story peopled entirely by Irish characters and place names and so on, perhaps it is best to have a glossary at the back. It would be irritating not having a clue what any of the characters were really called.
As for which I prefer, I sometimes feel, like you, that the spelling adds something to a name I wouldn't usually like - e.g., I love Niamh, but Neve does nothing for me. Orlaith is stunning, whereas Orla is quite blah. Sean is handsome, but Shaun is ugly. It totally depends though - there are some Irish spellings that I find really unattractive. For example, I love the sound "Ashleen" but dislike Aislin. And I hate anything that ends in "gh"!
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love them
But I also have experience with them and am aware of how to pronounce most of them (and can figure out how to pronounce some others). It did take some practice.
I've always thought that Irish names were nice to look at, and I love the history behind a lot of them. I think if you live anywhere but Ireland though, the really Irish looking ones that would be way too hard for unaware people to pronounce should be reserved for middle names though.
But I also have experience with them and am aware of how to pronounce most of them (and can figure out how to pronounce some others). It did take some practice.
I've always thought that Irish names were nice to look at, and I love the history behind a lot of them. I think if you live anywhere but Ireland though, the really Irish looking ones that would be way too hard for unaware people to pronounce should be reserved for middle names though.
This message was edited 2/27/2008, 7:01 AM
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Completely in favour
But then I've made a point of getting my head round the Irish Gaelic spelling system, so I can cope with Irish personal and place-names without a pronunciation guide.
A lot of people don't seem to realise that it's internally consistent, and a lot more so than English - it's just that the spellings for sounds like /v/ are different.
If you think about it, writing BH for a v-sound is no weirder than writing TH for a th-sound. They're both single consonants that happen to be written with two unrelated letters.
English spelling is bizarre enough already that most people will have no problem assimilating a name that looks a little weird. I've never had any insoluble problems with mine (Myfanwy). English is common, but that's no reason to insist that names from all other origins need conform to its spelling norms (such as there are). Kre8yv spellings can be a pain, but names genuinely from another language are entitled to their native orthography.
I'm not Irish, so far as I know, and Irish culture jingoism really has nothing to do with my views on this. I think it's more a reflexive defence of names as difficult as my own. I'd much rather correct the odd misspelt envelope than go through life as a phonetically-spelt Mivanweigh. I really would.
But then I've made a point of getting my head round the Irish Gaelic spelling system, so I can cope with Irish personal and place-names without a pronunciation guide.
A lot of people don't seem to realise that it's internally consistent, and a lot more so than English - it's just that the spellings for sounds like /v/ are different.
If you think about it, writing BH for a v-sound is no weirder than writing TH for a th-sound. They're both single consonants that happen to be written with two unrelated letters.
English spelling is bizarre enough already that most people will have no problem assimilating a name that looks a little weird. I've never had any insoluble problems with mine (Myfanwy). English is common, but that's no reason to insist that names from all other origins need conform to its spelling norms (such as there are). Kre8yv spellings can be a pain, but names genuinely from another language are entitled to their native orthography.
I'm not Irish, so far as I know, and Irish culture jingoism really has nothing to do with my views on this. I think it's more a reflexive defence of names as difficult as my own. I'd much rather correct the odd misspelt envelope than go through life as a phonetically-spelt Mivanweigh. I really would.
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I love them
But then again, I understand them.
I am Irish and it is likely that at least one if not more of my kids will have a traditionally spelt Irish first name and all of them will at the very least have a mn (for eg Susannah Claire Aoibheann or Ruby Annette Ceibhfhionn). I love the meanings and the history of the names and that is lost if they are spelt any other way. I understand how it could be frustrating to some people but I think more Irish names are making it into the mainstream, at least here in Australia.
A lot of people here are starting to recognise Niamh, the vast majority can say Siobhan with no problem, there was a girl in my high school called Caoimhe and people learnt that pretty quickly and my little sister Eimear doesn't have too many problems (she is only in preschool but people learn quickly).
But then again, I understand them.
I am Irish and it is likely that at least one if not more of my kids will have a traditionally spelt Irish first name and all of them will at the very least have a mn (for eg Susannah Claire Aoibheann or Ruby Annette Ceibhfhionn). I love the meanings and the history of the names and that is lost if they are spelt any other way. I understand how it could be frustrating to some people but I think more Irish names are making it into the mainstream, at least here in Australia.
A lot of people here are starting to recognise Niamh, the vast majority can say Siobhan with no problem, there was a girl in my high school called Caoimhe and people learnt that pretty quickly and my little sister Eimear doesn't have too many problems (she is only in preschool but people learn quickly).
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I love them too, even though I have no Irish heritage. Part of the attraction for me is the way they look. I'm going to use Caoimhe as an example as it's one of my favourites- Keeva just doesn't look good to me, even though it sounds the same.
I realize that it would cause difficulty, but I agree with Aine that it's doable- I see Niamh fairly often here in Aus, and pretty much everyone knows how to say Siobhan. People learn, you just have to be patient ;) I have a very unusual but spelled-as-it-sounds kind of name, and people never get it right, and it doesn't bother me.
That being said, I probably won't use any of my favourites (Caoimhe, Caoilainn, Aislinn/Aisling) simpoly because there are names that I love more, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a traditionally spelled Irish name, just because it's spelling will cause problems.
Oh, and sorry Aine, this probably should've gone under the OP- just wanted to add my two cents about Australia ;) To make it more relevant, I just wanted to say I love Eimear's name- and Daisy's too. How is she doing?
I realize that it would cause difficulty, but I agree with Aine that it's doable- I see Niamh fairly often here in Aus, and pretty much everyone knows how to say Siobhan. People learn, you just have to be patient ;) I have a very unusual but spelled-as-it-sounds kind of name, and people never get it right, and it doesn't bother me.
That being said, I probably won't use any of my favourites (Caoimhe, Caoilainn, Aislinn/Aisling) simpoly because there are names that I love more, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a traditionally spelled Irish name, just because it's spelling will cause problems.
Oh, and sorry Aine, this probably should've gone under the OP- just wanted to add my two cents about Australia ;) To make it more relevant, I just wanted to say I love Eimear's name- and Daisy's too. How is she doing?
This message was edited 2/27/2008, 5:14 AM
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In general I'm in favour of traditional spellings, but for Irish names I much prefer the Anglicized ones. I'm aware that the original spellings theoretically make sense, etc. etc., but they're so counter-intuitive and complicated that IMO it's a big hassle to use them on a child, just for the sake of linguistic purity and respect of Celtic culture.
Apart from that, even with the simplified spellings, there might be a couple of names I like, but generally I find the whole trend a tad annoying.
In a story, I think I might find the names distracting, especially if there's more than one, because I want to read them in a way that's totally diffetent from how they're pronounced. It could possibly be more accpetable if the story is set in Ireland, but even there, not *everyone* has a Celtic name.
Apart from that, even with the simplified spellings, there might be a couple of names I like, but generally I find the whole trend a tad annoying.
In a story, I think I might find the names distracting, especially if there's more than one, because I want to read them in a way that's totally diffetent from how they're pronounced. It could possibly be more accpetable if the story is set in Ireland, but even there, not *everyone* has a Celtic name.
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I think I'm starting to learn how they are pronounced and I've learnt that Caoimhe is not pronounced like Naomi with a C ;) But it takes time and it's hard to know how some of the longer names are suppose to be pronounced.
I wouldn't be irritated if there were Irish names in a story. I like names that are different and it wouldn't destroy the story. After all I thought Hermione was pronounced her-mee-oh-nee when I started to read Harry Potter *blushes*.
A pronunciation guide is a good idea but not necessary at all.
I wouldn't be irritated if there were Irish names in a story. I like names that are different and it wouldn't destroy the story. After all I thought Hermione was pronounced her-mee-oh-nee when I started to read Harry Potter *blushes*.
A pronunciation guide is a good idea but not necessary at all.
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I love traditional spellings, but then I like learning how to pronounce names and words from various languages. I'm a serious name nerd that way and seeing names with traditional spellings like that in text gets me pretty darn excited. I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea trying to get those types of names straight in one's head while reading something. A pronunciation guide would be cool in my opinion.
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I don't really like them spelled traditionally because I don't know how to pronounce them and I doubt many people really do. Imagine a poor kid trying to learn to spell his name and "English" letter sounds at the same time..in America I don't think it's a good idea.
As far as reading them in a book...if the book was set in Ireland or early America with an Irish family then I wouldn't mind, but I would most definately need some pronunciation help. Otherwise, I wouldn't like to see them randomly in a book that they didn't "fit" in.
As far as reading them in a book...if the book was set in Ireland or early America with an Irish family then I wouldn't mind, but I would most definately need some pronunciation help. Otherwise, I wouldn't like to see them randomly in a book that they didn't "fit" in.
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I myself adore Irish and Scottish names (and Welsh names for that matter) with their Gaelic spellings. Names like Eithne, Dearbhail, and Aodhan and Loegaire are just too lovely for words!
But I have long struggled with actually using the Gaelic spellings and confusing most people (especially if in the USA where I'm from) or just using the anglicized forms which are sometimes just as lovely as the Gaelic, sometimes (as in the case of Derval, Aidan and Leary) I prefer the anglicized spellings but with Eithne and in the case of my own favorite boys name Ciaran I prefer the Gaelic for various reasons.
Sean of course is accepted now as Shawn and often used more than Shawn or Shaun.
And I think that Siobhan, Niamh and maybe even Aoife have been seen more in recent years and could have the possibility of being pronounced correctly.
Aoibheann, Sadhbh, Caoimhe, and Ruaidhri though would probably have the effect of the average person looking at it and staring wide eyed! :)
As far as in stories, I suppose it depends upon the type of story you're writing. Fantasy, sci-fi, and any fiction written about Irish people/culture. As for general fiction or mysteries there's always built into each character a psychology of not only their personality and tastes but the personalities and tastes of each character's parents that would extent to what they named their child (i.e. hippy parents might use hippy type name, Irish parents or those who admired Irish culture or were of Irish decent might use original Gaelic spellings). You wouldn't have to give pronunciation guides and in the case of fantasy particularly it would be better not to give them (did Tolkien?) because it would just add to the mystery of a different land and culture.
Hope this helps! :)
But I have long struggled with actually using the Gaelic spellings and confusing most people (especially if in the USA where I'm from) or just using the anglicized forms which are sometimes just as lovely as the Gaelic, sometimes (as in the case of Derval, Aidan and Leary) I prefer the anglicized spellings but with Eithne and in the case of my own favorite boys name Ciaran I prefer the Gaelic for various reasons.
Sean of course is accepted now as Shawn and often used more than Shawn or Shaun.
And I think that Siobhan, Niamh and maybe even Aoife have been seen more in recent years and could have the possibility of being pronounced correctly.
Aoibheann, Sadhbh, Caoimhe, and Ruaidhri though would probably have the effect of the average person looking at it and staring wide eyed! :)
As far as in stories, I suppose it depends upon the type of story you're writing. Fantasy, sci-fi, and any fiction written about Irish people/culture. As for general fiction or mysteries there's always built into each character a psychology of not only their personality and tastes but the personalities and tastes of each character's parents that would extent to what they named their child (i.e. hippy parents might use hippy type name, Irish parents or those who admired Irish culture or were of Irish decent might use original Gaelic spellings). You wouldn't have to give pronunciation guides and in the case of fantasy particularly it would be better not to give them (did Tolkien?) because it would just add to the mystery of a different land and culture.
Hope this helps! :)
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I wouldn't mind the names in a story, but I'd like a pronounciation guide.Because otherwise, I'd be taking a stab at them the way they are written, and that would be wrong.
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Honestly, I don't like them. 99 times out of a 100 I prefer the anglicized versions of these names, and I think that for those of us outside of Ireland, they would be far easier to live with than the traditional spellings.
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I've read a book with a girl named Niamh in it before. There was no pronunciation guide, but the pron. was emphasized in dialogue early in the book. That's my favorite way to introduce a difficult name - have a character fumble over it and be corrected along with the reader.
I can pronounce Niamh, Caoimhe, and Siobhan just by looking at them, but I did go through an Irish phase a few years ago and learn some of their pronunciation rules. :)
I can pronounce Niamh, Caoimhe, and Siobhan just by looking at them, but I did go through an Irish phase a few years ago and learn some of their pronunciation rules. :)
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I have difficulty with some pronounciations but I love to see names written traditionally
I admit to getting a bit discouraged when reading a book where all the characters have difficult to pronounce names, especially made up creatively spelt names where unlike Irish names I can't figure out how they might be pronounced by checking up on them on BTN.
A pronounciation guide is always useful
I admit to getting a bit discouraged when reading a book where all the characters have difficult to pronounce names, especially made up creatively spelt names where unlike Irish names I can't figure out how they might be pronounced by checking up on them on BTN.
A pronounciation guide is always useful
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If these were in a book, I'd probably either 1) make up a pronunciation if I didn't know it or try my best to get it right if I did [if the story's good] or B) get frustrated and give up (especially if the story's bad).
I don't really like any of these, not the spellings, or the pronunciation. The one name like these on my list is Tadhg, which is a GP. I adore the meaning.
I don't really like any of these, not the spellings, or the pronunciation. The one name like these on my list is Tadhg, which is a GP. I adore the meaning.
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Oh! I love Tadhg! Thanks.
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Rar. I have expressed my opinion on this a lot and it always gets people angry and Irish-patriotic at me. And I don't care. Those spellings infuriate me so much. Eefa is a neat-sounding name. Neeve is neat-sounding. Keeva is neat-sounding. Sive is neat-sounding.
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Pah. If you live in an English-speaking place, have a TEENY bit of respect for the people around you and spell them in ways that make sense. Caoimhe DOES NOT SPELL KEEVA ! They don't look beautiful to me, they look like a bunch of random letters thrown together by some snickering troublemakers. Like if I wrote Aichuttnrio on my school enrollment forms and insisted that my teachers pronounced it Emma. Nope. Ugh they infuriate me so much.
I will not reply to any replies to this.
ETA: I would be VERY infuriated to read a story with more than one or two of these in it. And pronunciation guides for those two I would expect to be provided. But 1-2 is okay.
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Pah. If you live in an English-speaking place, have a TEENY bit of respect for the people around you and spell them in ways that make sense. Caoimhe DOES NOT SPELL KEEVA ! They don't look beautiful to me, they look like a bunch of random letters thrown together by some snickering troublemakers. Like if I wrote Aichuttnrio on my school enrollment forms and insisted that my teachers pronounced it Emma. Nope. Ugh they infuriate me so much.
I will not reply to any replies to this.
ETA: I would be VERY infuriated to read a story with more than one or two of these in it. And pronunciation guides for those two I would expect to be provided. But 1-2 is okay.
This message was edited 2/26/2008, 6:22 PM
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I love the traditional spellings of Irish names because they are so beautifully different. I would like a story with lots of these names in because I would be able to look up and learn the correct pronounciations! A pronounciation guide with a book with lots of those names in would be very helpful and make for easier reading for those who are not prepared, or do not have the time to research the names.
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