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HelpRe: why do people seem to like Celtic names so much?
in reply to a message by Murasaki
I remember Dylan Moran saying something like, "The Irish have great PR now. We used to be terrorists but al-Queda stole our thunder and now we're the happy riverdance people. The Americans love us the most. They tell me, 'Oh, I'm Irish! My grandmother was from Galway.' And then they ask if I knew her. I always say yes."
He's joking, obviously, but it's not that far from the truth. Not only do people want to give their kids Irish names, they want to be Irish. I don't understand it myself. I'm Scottish, and it's the same with Scottish and Welsh names to some degree. A taxi driver in San Francisco was thrilled to find that I was Scottish, and told me that he was, too - five minutes after mistaking my accent for a German one :-D
The trend has various levels, though. Some people take a learned approach and dig up things like Iarfhlaith that even the Irish aren't using; some take the middle ground with Liam and Aidan; and others just like the sound and pick up on pseudo-Irish American names like Kaden and Makenna.
Plenty of names that have got popular have the same sound - two syllables, ending in "n" - but make no pretense of being from Gaelic. I'm thinking of Grayson, Laken, Jaden etc. I don't know whether the vogue for that sound came first, and people just realised that lots of Gaelic names fit it - or the Irish vogue came first. I suspect the former but that's just a feeling. Where's CKE when we need him?
He's joking, obviously, but it's not that far from the truth. Not only do people want to give their kids Irish names, they want to be Irish. I don't understand it myself. I'm Scottish, and it's the same with Scottish and Welsh names to some degree. A taxi driver in San Francisco was thrilled to find that I was Scottish, and told me that he was, too - five minutes after mistaking my accent for a German one :-D
The trend has various levels, though. Some people take a learned approach and dig up things like Iarfhlaith that even the Irish aren't using; some take the middle ground with Liam and Aidan; and others just like the sound and pick up on pseudo-Irish American names like Kaden and Makenna.
Plenty of names that have got popular have the same sound - two syllables, ending in "n" - but make no pretense of being from Gaelic. I'm thinking of Grayson, Laken, Jaden etc. I don't know whether the vogue for that sound came first, and people just realised that lots of Gaelic names fit it - or the Irish vogue came first. I suspect the former but that's just a feeling. Where's CKE when we need him?
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Hello. :)
I think the "two syllables ending in -n" is as much from surnames that have that form that have become popular as male names over the years as it is from Celtic names like Kevin that accidentally had that pattern in the first place.
The "great PR" of the Irish is not something that started recently, at least in the USA. It goes back to around World War II or even a bit before. It comes from the Irish being the first "non-English" ethnic group in the USA to reach the "fourth generation" status. Most immigrants to the USA in the past wanted to give their kids "American" names to help them fit in and overcome prejudice. The Irish were no exception to this. But by the time the third or fourth generation in the USA is born, people become nostalgic about their "roots" and romanticize them, and start to search for names that reflect their ancestry. This started with the Irish back in the middle 20th century with girls' names like Kathleen, Maureen, and Colleen -- Colleen actually being only a word in Ireland itself at that point; the idea of turning it into a name was strictly an American one. Ever since then each generation comes up with its own "Irish revival" names. You had Kevin, Sean, and Brian in the late 20th century, and Liam, Connor, and Finn more recently for boys. Colleen gave way to Meghan (also a psuedo-Irish name; Americans thought it was Irish, but it was really Welsh) and Caitlin -- and of course then there are all the Irish surnames that Americans have adopted as given names, such as Kelly, Ryan, Reagan, Kennedy, Nolan, Braden, Grady, Donovan, Rowan, Shea, Sullivan, etc.
I think the "two syllables ending in -n" is as much from surnames that have that form that have become popular as male names over the years as it is from Celtic names like Kevin that accidentally had that pattern in the first place.
The "great PR" of the Irish is not something that started recently, at least in the USA. It goes back to around World War II or even a bit before. It comes from the Irish being the first "non-English" ethnic group in the USA to reach the "fourth generation" status. Most immigrants to the USA in the past wanted to give their kids "American" names to help them fit in and overcome prejudice. The Irish were no exception to this. But by the time the third or fourth generation in the USA is born, people become nostalgic about their "roots" and romanticize them, and start to search for names that reflect their ancestry. This started with the Irish back in the middle 20th century with girls' names like Kathleen, Maureen, and Colleen -- Colleen actually being only a word in Ireland itself at that point; the idea of turning it into a name was strictly an American one. Ever since then each generation comes up with its own "Irish revival" names. You had Kevin, Sean, and Brian in the late 20th century, and Liam, Connor, and Finn more recently for boys. Colleen gave way to Meghan (also a psuedo-Irish name; Americans thought it was Irish, but it was really Welsh) and Caitlin -- and of course then there are all the Irish surnames that Americans have adopted as given names, such as Kelly, Ryan, Reagan, Kennedy, Nolan, Braden, Grady, Donovan, Rowan, Shea, Sullivan, etc.
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Is it really seen as pretentious to use the phrasing "I am ____" rather than "I have ____ ancestry"? I understand what would make it confusing when living in Europe, but most people are going to understand that if someone who has clearly grown up in America is saying "I am French", they mean that that's their ancestry. It's just a convention of language because it's shorter to say.
I know I sound wicked defensive. It's probably because I hate the Irish trend (I don't particularly like the sound of Irish (or for that matter, Welsh or Scottish) names in general, with a few notable exceptions) and I'm American but I often say "I'm Irish" or "I'm Irish and German" or "I'm Irish-Catholic", because that seems simpler than saying Irish-American/Irish-German-American. I don't ever say that because I think of myself as really Irish, and I get offended by people who do that. So now I am worried that I come off that way. That's why I'm defensive.
I know I sound wicked defensive. It's probably because I hate the Irish trend (I don't particularly like the sound of Irish (or for that matter, Welsh or Scottish) names in general, with a few notable exceptions) and I'm American but I often say "I'm Irish" or "I'm Irish and German" or "I'm Irish-Catholic", because that seems simpler than saying Irish-American/Irish-German-American. I don't ever say that because I think of myself as really Irish, and I get offended by people who do that. So now I am worried that I come off that way. That's why I'm defensive.
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When I was a kid we used to say "I'm Irish/I'm Italian" until my parents corrected us to say "I'm American". :) But when discussing genealogy I'll say "I'm Italian on my mother's side, Irish on my father's". It's just shorter to say that than "I'm of Italian ancestry on my mother's side..."
That said I do love the sound of Irish names, but wouldn't choose Niamh (one of my favorites) because no one in the US would be able to spell or pronounce it. I do love the name Maeve though and that is spelled the way it's pronounced.
But for some reason I really can't get into the revival of "Italian" names, like Gianna and Francesca. I knew my great grandmother who was from Italy and she gave all of her children English names (or anglicized Italian ones). So I guess in my mind it would seem almost "backward" to revert to Italian spellings. I understand why my Italian great grandmother gave her children English names - and I want to follow in those footsteps.
Hence I named my daughter Caroline which has no connection to my Irish/Italian heritage - I just liked it.
That said I do love the sound of Irish names, but wouldn't choose Niamh (one of my favorites) because no one in the US would be able to spell or pronounce it. I do love the name Maeve though and that is spelled the way it's pronounced.
But for some reason I really can't get into the revival of "Italian" names, like Gianna and Francesca. I knew my great grandmother who was from Italy and she gave all of her children English names (or anglicized Italian ones). So I guess in my mind it would seem almost "backward" to revert to Italian spellings. I understand why my Italian great grandmother gave her children English names - and I want to follow in those footsteps.
Hence I named my daughter Caroline which has no connection to my Irish/Italian heritage - I just liked it.
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I don't see it as pretentious, but amusing, sometimes. The guy in the taxi said "I'm Scottish" in a great Californian drawl despite having never heard a Scottish accent before, let alone being able to recognise it (he thought I was German). I imagine he couldn't have pointed it out on a map either. I doubt you come across that way, but I didn't think he came off badly. He was lovely! It just made me giggle on the inside :-)
I don't think it's something anyone should get offended about, wherever they're from. If anything, this trend for Ireland-love must be very flattering to the Irish.
I don't think it's something anyone should get offended about, wherever they're from. If anything, this trend for Ireland-love must be very flattering to the Irish.
This message was edited 1/21/2008, 9:41 AM
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I find it a bit funny
I find it funny when I am in the US and someone tells me: "Oh, you're Italian? So am I!" My internal reaction is: "No you're not. Your an American of some Italian descent." I get your point about people the "I am ___" because it's simpler, esp. amongst Americans, but for me it just looks like equating having a grandparent of a certain nationality who landed in Ellis Island in 1910 with having lived all your life in a country, speaking its language as a first language etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for people preserving their immigrant culture, but as I said, this form is a bit funny from an Eruopean point of view.
Interesting about Italian names becoming popular in the US...Incidentally, Gianna is the kind of name that has pretty much fallen out of use in Italy, so it's a bit like insisting on using Celtic spellings when even "real" Scots and Irish use the anglicized ones.
I find it funny when I am in the US and someone tells me: "Oh, you're Italian? So am I!" My internal reaction is: "No you're not. Your an American of some Italian descent." I get your point about people the "I am ___" because it's simpler, esp. amongst Americans, but for me it just looks like equating having a grandparent of a certain nationality who landed in Ellis Island in 1910 with having lived all your life in a country, speaking its language as a first language etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for people preserving their immigrant culture, but as I said, this form is a bit funny from an Eruopean point of view.
Interesting about Italian names becoming popular in the US...Incidentally, Gianna is the kind of name that has pretty much fallen out of use in Italy, so it's a bit like insisting on using Celtic spellings when even "real" Scots and Irish use the anglicized ones.
This message was edited 1/21/2008, 4:50 AM
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Gianna
I'm pretty sure that the recent upswing of Gianna is related to the beatification (1994) and subsequent canonization (2004) of St. Gianna Beretta Molla. I hear it a lot in Catholic circles in the US, not just among Italian-Americans. It’s a nice option for families that already have a Mary, Katherine, Elizabeth or Anne.
I'm pretty sure that the recent upswing of Gianna is related to the beatification (1994) and subsequent canonization (2004) of St. Gianna Beretta Molla. I hear it a lot in Catholic circles in the US, not just among Italian-Americans. It’s a nice option for families that already have a Mary, Katherine, Elizabeth or Anne.
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