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HelpHey!
in reply to a message by blaaarg
They may not make sense phonetically IN ENGLISH, but nor do many French names, Spanish names, German names, Greek names etc.
Also, I don't see why they are any more pretentious than those of another language. I agree that it's annoying when people say they love Irish names just because they're Irish, but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing matter. You don't have to like all Irish names, just as you don't have to like all English ones.
Sorry to rant, but I found your post rather offensive.
Also, I don't see why they are any more pretentious than those of another language. I agree that it's annoying when people say they love Irish names just because they're Irish, but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing matter. You don't have to like all Irish names, just as you don't have to like all English ones.
Sorry to rant, but I found your post rather offensive.
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I would disagree with this. Many French, Spanish, Greek, German and the like make sense in English at least to some extent because they are all of similar origin. English has many french-origin words, is Germanic in nature and took many words from Greek and the Romance languages. Irish however is completely different. It is of the Indo-European tree, but it is not really as tied into the other languages as some Indo-European languages are, and is completely foreign to English Speakers for the msot part.
Many irish names have an anglacized version for a reason, to make them more user-friendly to people who do not speak or understand the native tongue. I am not saying it is wrong to use them, just saying that they are a bit different than French, German, Spanish, etc. names for English.
Many irish names have an anglacized version for a reason, to make them more user-friendly to people who do not speak or understand the native tongue. I am not saying it is wrong to use them, just saying that they are a bit different than French, German, Spanish, etc. names for English.
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From my experience....
Yes, they may "make more sense" seeing as English has borrowed many words from other languages, but please try to have the average, non-name geek, non-language learner to pronounce names from French such as Edouard and Spanish, German, etc. and you will find that they can pronounce htem just as well as say Caoimhe.
Unless they are very common like Danielle or Diego.
Yes, they may "make more sense" seeing as English has borrowed many words from other languages, but please try to have the average, non-name geek, non-language learner to pronounce names from French such as Edouard and Spanish, German, etc. and you will find that they can pronounce htem just as well as say Caoimhe.
Unless they are very common like Danielle or Diego.
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 7:59 AM
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It may be completely foreign to most English speakers now, but so were many words from the other languages at some point in history. English people got used to them, and I believe they will get used to Irish names to some extent too, as long as they don't close their minds against them because they "make no sense".
Maybe some of the names won't go over because they're just too different, but I don't see what's mad about Lorccan / Lorcan, Cuan, Cian, and once you've learned some basic rules, it's not difficult to figure out most of the others.
Maybe some of the names won't go over because they're just too different, but I don't see what's mad about Lorccan / Lorcan, Cuan, Cian, and once you've learned some basic rules, it's not difficult to figure out most of the others.
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But figuring out that C is soft with I in English is such a hard concept to get down for most people in the first place! Cian almost makes me want to cry.
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Well if it's so hard to understand that it's soft, maybe we should all just stick with the Irish prn., since it's obviously more sensible :p
I think I'm ready to agree to disagree now, I don't want to argue with you as I usually agree with everything you say!
I think I'm ready to agree to disagree now, I don't want to argue with you as I usually agree with everything you say!
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What? Cian is pronounced with a hard C. You take this way too seriously. Makes you want to cry? Why?
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"Many irish names have an anglacized version for a reason, to make them more user-friendly to people who do not speak or understand the native tongue. I am not saying it is wrong to use them, just saying that they are a bit different than French, German, Spanish, etc. names for English."
I agree with you on this part! Even in Ireland, it's not too uncommon for parents to use an anglicised spelling of a traditional Irish name, because the traditional spelling would cause too much hassle for the child. The example that always springs to my mind is nineties girl band B*witched, made up of four girls from Ireland, one of whom was named Keevy. Not Caoimhe, Keevy. So some Irish spellings don't really make sense from an English speaker's perspective, even if the English speaker happens to have been born and raised in Ireland. In fact, when a girl named Mairead (a fairly easy one to pronounce, IMO) started at my work, it was my Irish team leader (who spent her whole life in Ireland, and moved over here less than three years ago), who had more trouble than anyone else remembering how to say it!
I agree with you on this part! Even in Ireland, it's not too uncommon for parents to use an anglicised spelling of a traditional Irish name, because the traditional spelling would cause too much hassle for the child. The example that always springs to my mind is nineties girl band B*witched, made up of four girls from Ireland, one of whom was named Keevy. Not Caoimhe, Keevy. So some Irish spellings don't really make sense from an English speaker's perspective, even if the English speaker happens to have been born and raised in Ireland. In fact, when a girl named Mairead (a fairly easy one to pronounce, IMO) started at my work, it was my Irish team leader (who spent her whole life in Ireland, and moved over here less than three years ago), who had more trouble than anyone else remembering how to say it!
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Yeah, oh well.
Most people go all ~OMG IRISH~ when they talk about Irish names, and so they give me that impression - as pretentious and trendy.
And since French, Spanish, German, and Greek all contributed to English or came from similar roots, I can understand their phonetics, even if I don't use them in everyday English. Gaelic was shut out from English's development, and so it baffles and slightly angers me on a very basic level.
Maybe my reasons aren't particularly logical, but that doesn't stop me disliking Irish names one jot.
Most people go all ~OMG IRISH~ when they talk about Irish names, and so they give me that impression - as pretentious and trendy.
And since French, Spanish, German, and Greek all contributed to English or came from similar roots, I can understand their phonetics, even if I don't use them in everyday English. Gaelic was shut out from English's development, and so it baffles and slightly angers me on a very basic level.
Maybe my reasons aren't particularly logical, but that doesn't stop me disliking Irish names one jot.
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As I said, I too find it annoying when people like Irish names just because they're Irish, but that doesn't mean you can make a sweeping generalisation that everyone who uses one is pretentious.
I don't see why Gaelic angers you at all. I know about the history of English including the languages I mentioned, but that doesn't mean all the elements from those languages were brought into English. Look at the top names in those countries; does Alejandro make phonetic sense in English? Does Théo? You're used to these names and to the languages they come from, so maybe you don't notice the difference.
Understanding of Irish phonetics will gradually work its way into people, unless they are as close-minded as you obviously intend to be.
I don't mind you disliking Irish names, it was just the reasons you gave that I found offensive and narrow-minded.
I don't see why Gaelic angers you at all. I know about the history of English including the languages I mentioned, but that doesn't mean all the elements from those languages were brought into English. Look at the top names in those countries; does Alejandro make phonetic sense in English? Does Théo? You're used to these names and to the languages they come from, so maybe you don't notice the difference.
Understanding of Irish phonetics will gradually work its way into people, unless they are as close-minded as you obviously intend to be.
I don't mind you disliking Irish names, it was just the reasons you gave that I found offensive and narrow-minded.
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Baffles and slightly angers you...
Why on earth?
Why on earth?
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For very basic reasons, as I stated, and not ones I am going to spend a lot of energy defending as they don't merit it.
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Have you ever considered the slight possibility that maybe you just dislike trends, naming fads, etc. rather than the Irish names itself? Coming from Ireland myself, I grow up with names like Cian, Seamus, Caoimhe - how is it pretentious for Americans/Australians and anyone else with Irish heritage to honour their ancestry?
You could make the same argument for people who give their kids Russian or Dutch names, which are just as arguably hard to pronounce correctly.
Why is it that people hate things they don't understand anyway? So you don't speak Gaelic Irish - that's a reason for you to hate the names?
You could make the same argument for people who give their kids Russian or Dutch names, which are just as arguably hard to pronounce correctly.
Why is it that people hate things they don't understand anyway? So you don't speak Gaelic Irish - that's a reason for you to hate the names?
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