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Help[Facts] Re: probable error in data base
in reply to a message by crusadermarmot
You state that it is "arguably quite clear" that the root cor means "raven". How is this clear? I am asking because you declined to demonstrate how the cor in Cormac is etymologically the same to the cor in Corbin: you only referred to two generic baby name books, both of which apparently fail to provide arguments for the relation. This is in contrast to the book by Patrick Hanks that you mentioned, which at least did provide arguments for the meaning that is mentioned in his book - this illustrates that that book is at least a little bit more scientific in nature than the two generic baby name books that you mentioned.
You know, just because the cor in Corbin looks similar and has a more pleasant meaning, doesn't mean that it's the 100% accurate meaning for Cormac. I'll have you know that the French corbeau that Corbin was derived from, is ultimately derived from Latin corvus "raven". So the etymology of the cor in Corbin is ultimately Latin in origin. With your claim of Cormac meaning "son of raven", it would mean that Cormac is a name that is half Latin, half Gaelic (because the element mac is 100% Gaelic). This is unlikely, because any Latin influence in the Gaelic language (let alone Gaelic names) would have come during and after the introduction of Christianity in Ireland (since Latin was the language in which bibles were written and masses were held in those days). It could only have been then (i.e. with the introduction of Christianity), because Ireland (unlike Britain) was never occupied by the Romans and so had very little exposure to the Roman culture and language (prior to the introduction of Christianity). Christianity came to Ireland around 431 AD (= 5th century AD), while the name Cormac was around long before that: Cormac the High King of Ireland lived in the 3rd century AD, so that's two centuries before Christianity came to Ireland. Therefore, I deem it unlikely that Cormac is half Latinate in origin: it is a 100% Gaelic name and so the cor in Cormac has nothing to do whatsoever with the cor in Corbin.
With that said, Patrick Hanks might have a point with the cor versus corb argument - but only if he is referring to a Gaelic cor: if he is also referring to the Latinate cor, then he is not very believeable either. You didn't make it entirely clear what he was referring to, so would you mind informing us whether the elements he was talking about were both Gaelic (i.e. were corb and especially cor both Gaelic in his book)? If both were indeed Gaelic in his book, then I certainly would like to see more about how corb is a more recent root than cor. Perhaps you could quote the relevant piece of text in his book?
Last but not least, I would advise you to be a little bit more critical of the baby name books you buy and quote. Such books often are quite generic and - more often than not - hardly scientific (just like the many baby name websites on the Internet). Meaning, they are often not written by experts who were actually trained in etymology: they were just written by people hoping to cash in easily on parents-to-be, who of course are quick to buy baby-related stuff and will especially flock to baby name books with more fanciful meanings. Now, I will honestly admit that I am not familiar with Barbara Kay Turner and Yvonne de la Paix, but if their books provide an erroneous meaning for Cormac, then I am quite skeptical about the quality of their books and the expertise of these authors.
"How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on... when in your heart you begin to understand... there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend... some hurts that go too deep... that have taken hold." ~ Frodo Baggins
You know, just because the cor in Corbin looks similar and has a more pleasant meaning, doesn't mean that it's the 100% accurate meaning for Cormac. I'll have you know that the French corbeau that Corbin was derived from, is ultimately derived from Latin corvus "raven". So the etymology of the cor in Corbin is ultimately Latin in origin. With your claim of Cormac meaning "son of raven", it would mean that Cormac is a name that is half Latin, half Gaelic (because the element mac is 100% Gaelic). This is unlikely, because any Latin influence in the Gaelic language (let alone Gaelic names) would have come during and after the introduction of Christianity in Ireland (since Latin was the language in which bibles were written and masses were held in those days). It could only have been then (i.e. with the introduction of Christianity), because Ireland (unlike Britain) was never occupied by the Romans and so had very little exposure to the Roman culture and language (prior to the introduction of Christianity). Christianity came to Ireland around 431 AD (= 5th century AD), while the name Cormac was around long before that: Cormac the High King of Ireland lived in the 3rd century AD, so that's two centuries before Christianity came to Ireland. Therefore, I deem it unlikely that Cormac is half Latinate in origin: it is a 100% Gaelic name and so the cor in Cormac has nothing to do whatsoever with the cor in Corbin.
With that said, Patrick Hanks might have a point with the cor versus corb argument - but only if he is referring to a Gaelic cor: if he is also referring to the Latinate cor, then he is not very believeable either. You didn't make it entirely clear what he was referring to, so would you mind informing us whether the elements he was talking about were both Gaelic (i.e. were corb and especially cor both Gaelic in his book)? If both were indeed Gaelic in his book, then I certainly would like to see more about how corb is a more recent root than cor. Perhaps you could quote the relevant piece of text in his book?
Last but not least, I would advise you to be a little bit more critical of the baby name books you buy and quote. Such books often are quite generic and - more often than not - hardly scientific (just like the many baby name websites on the Internet). Meaning, they are often not written by experts who were actually trained in etymology: they were just written by people hoping to cash in easily on parents-to-be, who of course are quick to buy baby-related stuff and will especially flock to baby name books with more fanciful meanings. Now, I will honestly admit that I am not familiar with Barbara Kay Turner and Yvonne de la Paix, but if their books provide an erroneous meaning for Cormac, then I am quite skeptical about the quality of their books and the expertise of these authors.
"How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on... when in your heart you begin to understand... there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend... some hurts that go too deep... that have taken hold." ~ Frodo Baggins
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