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Help[Facts] Re: I beg to differ...
in reply to a message by SugarPlumFairy
Well, I'm not sure we're going to agree. The question was whether the pronunciation of Renzo as "Henzo" was accurate. The exact sound of the Brazilian initial R may not exist in English, but since we therefore have to approximate, it is much closer to what English-speakers identify as H than to R, rolled or otherwise. (This does not mean that a native Portuguese speaker could not perceive the same sound as a "soft rolled R").
Listen to this speaker say "raça" and "rua" : http://www.portugueseforcapoeiristas.com/2011/09/pronunciation-focus-brazilian-portuguese-r/ . A native English-speaker perceives this sound as a strongly emphasized H (and this site along with the two I previously linked to also states it is an H sound). I hear the same sound medially in "corrida," "morrer," and "terra." It is not what is commonly called a rolled R, which is articulated with the tip of the tongue.
Edited to add: It would be interesting and helpful if the opening poster, or any other native English speakers who happen to read this, would listen to those two words and state what sound they seem to start with. I'm certainly willing to be corrected, if I am wrong!
Listen to this speaker say "raça" and "rua" : http://www.portugueseforcapoeiristas.com/2011/09/pronunciation-focus-brazilian-portuguese-r/ . A native English-speaker perceives this sound as a strongly emphasized H (and this site along with the two I previously linked to also states it is an H sound). I hear the same sound medially in "corrida," "morrer," and "terra." It is not what is commonly called a rolled R, which is articulated with the tip of the tongue.
Edited to add: It would be interesting and helpful if the opening poster, or any other native English speakers who happen to read this, would listen to those two words and state what sound they seem to start with. I'm certainly willing to be corrected, if I am wrong!
This message was edited 6/19/2012, 12:56 PM
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Replies
I'm an American English native speaker, and the initial sound in "raça" and "rua" sounds exactly like "h" to me. In "corrido" it sounds like the British English non-rhotic "r" at the end of the first syllable, and "h" at the beginning of the second syllable. In "morrer", the middle "r" sounds like "h" and the other two sound like non-rhotic "r". In the words ending in "ar", the "r" sounds like the non-rhotic "r". Interesting.
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I hear an "h" sound. If you were to ask me to write them out without seeing their spellings, I would definitely not use an "r."
I think the point here is that our OP is a native English speaker that cannot necessarily (but maybe she can) pick up on the subtleties in another language that uses a sound not found in her own. Of course it sounds different to a native speaker of that language, because they've grown up with it.
Here's another example. I'm Israeli. In Hebrew, we have sounds also not in English. One of them is the "ch" sound, a gutteral "h" sound. Many people cannot pronounce this sound, or they cannot distinguish it from a normal "h." (I speak from experience) Based on that, is it wrong to write/pronounce Chanukkah as Hanukkah? In an English speaking country, of course not. One is not more wrong than the other in such a case. Just because I myself can pick up on a pronounciation like that doesn't mean that everyone else can. Should those people be subject to trying to pronounce something that they find difficult?
I think the point here is that our OP is a native English speaker that cannot necessarily (but maybe she can) pick up on the subtleties in another language that uses a sound not found in her own. Of course it sounds different to a native speaker of that language, because they've grown up with it.
Here's another example. I'm Israeli. In Hebrew, we have sounds also not in English. One of them is the "ch" sound, a gutteral "h" sound. Many people cannot pronounce this sound, or they cannot distinguish it from a normal "h." (I speak from experience) Based on that, is it wrong to write/pronounce Chanukkah as Hanukkah? In an English speaking country, of course not. One is not more wrong than the other in such a case. Just because I myself can pick up on a pronounciation like that doesn't mean that everyone else can. Should those people be subject to trying to pronounce something that they find difficult?
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I'm not sure if this will help anything, but here's my two cents.
When in doubt, the rolled "R" pronounciation is certainly the preferred one since that's what it's "supposed" to sound like - the "educated" pronounciation, if you prefer. Similarly, just because many English speakers prounounce "that" as "dat", but that doesn't mean people learning English should adopt the latter it as "standard" pronounciation. Assuming that the initial "R" in Portuguese sounds like "H" is a gross generalisation.
That being said, the Wikipedia page is very well sourced and explains it quite well : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_phonology
It would be interesting if you asked your in-laws if they percieve "rei" (Portuguese) and "hey" (English) as homophones :)
When in doubt, the rolled "R" pronounciation is certainly the preferred one since that's what it's "supposed" to sound like - the "educated" pronounciation, if you prefer. Similarly, just because many English speakers prounounce "that" as "dat", but that doesn't mean people learning English should adopt the latter it as "standard" pronounciation. Assuming that the initial "R" in Portuguese sounds like "H" is a gross generalisation.
That being said, the Wikipedia page is very well sourced and explains it quite well : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_phonology
It would be interesting if you asked your in-laws if they percieve "rei" (Portuguese) and "hey" (English) as homophones :)
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I think you need to be very careful about claiming a given pronunciation to be "preferred," "educated," or "supposed to be that way" when comparing dialects across countries. What is preferred in England and Portugal may not be preferred in the U.S. and Brazil. To say, for instance, that pronouncing the suffix "-er" as a schwa, [ə], (standard British pronunciation) is educated and just supposed to be that way, while the rhotic [ɚ] (standard American pronunciation) is uneducated and shouldn't be imitated, would be quite offensive.
The Wikipedia page you referenced, in fact, draws a clear distinction between the standard pronunciation of R in Portugal and Brazil. To quote phonetic note #3 in part:
"In Europe, it is typically a uvular trill [ʀ]...In Brazil...it is usually pronounced as a voiceless velar fricative [x], a voiceless glottal fricative [h] or voiceless uvular fricative [χ]."
In Brazil, according to this article, the letter R is USUALLY pronounced as an [h], or as [x] or [χ], which are fricatives similar to [h] and perceived by English-speakers as variants of that phoneme. How can it be a "gross generalization" to say that the preferred or standard pronunciation of R in most parts of Brazil is H or an H-like sound?
The Wikipedia page you referenced, in fact, draws a clear distinction between the standard pronunciation of R in Portugal and Brazil. To quote phonetic note #3 in part:
"In Europe, it is typically a uvular trill [ʀ]...In Brazil...it is usually pronounced as a voiceless velar fricative [x], a voiceless glottal fricative [h] or voiceless uvular fricative [χ]."
In Brazil, according to this article, the letter R is USUALLY pronounced as an [h], or as [x] or [χ], which are fricatives similar to [h] and perceived by English-speakers as variants of that phoneme. How can it be a "gross generalization" to say that the preferred or standard pronunciation of R in most parts of Brazil is H or an H-like sound?
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I can't convince you how to pronounce my own language, that's okay.
I've watched Brazillian TV my whole life, I talk to Brazillians all the time, and I've never percieved their "R"s as the English "H" - so cannot be not the "standard pronunciation of R in most parts of Brazil".
The Wikipedia page clearly states that the /ʁ/ pronunciation is the most correct, whether you are in Europe, in Brazil, or in Africa. My grandparents roll their Rs much more than I do, in the end of the day it's an R.
Imagine and English teacher saying to her Portuguese students: the "th" sound doesn't exist in our language, but some English-speakers say it as "d" so let's take that pronounciation as our standard.
I've watched Brazillian TV my whole life, I talk to Brazillians all the time, and I've never percieved their "R"s as the English "H" - so cannot be not the "standard pronunciation of R in most parts of Brazil".
The Wikipedia page clearly states that the /ʁ/ pronunciation is the most correct, whether you are in Europe, in Brazil, or in Africa. My grandparents roll their Rs much more than I do, in the end of the day it's an R.
Imagine and English teacher saying to her Portuguese students: the "th" sound doesn't exist in our language, but some English-speakers say it as "d" so let's take that pronounciation as our standard.
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I don't know what you may or may not have heard, any more than you know what I may or may not have heard. Certainly, people's perceptions of sounds are colored by their native language(s) and their experiences. But I am still very curious where on the Wikipedia page it clearly states that "the /ʁ/ pronunciation is the most correct, whether you are in Europe, in Brazil, or in Africa." I have read the page carefully three times and don't see that anywhere. Please enlighten me.
Furthermore, I went to the Wikipedia page on Portuguese dialects, thinking that might give more detail. It says:
"The pronunciation of syllable-initial and syllable-final r varies considerably with dialect. See Guttural R in Portuguese, for details. In summary, syllable-initial ⟨r⟩ and doubled ⟨rr⟩ are pronounced as a guttural [ʁ] in most cities in Portugal, but as a traditional trill [r] in rural Portugal. In Brazil, this sound is normally pronounced as an unvoiced guttural ([x], [χ] or [h]), which is also used for ⟨r⟩ at the end of syllables (except in the caipira dialect, which uses an alveolar approximant [ɹ]). ⟨r⟩ at the ends of words in Brazil is normally silent or barely pronounced."
I don't see how anyone can read this and come away with the conclusions that: 1) The [ʁ] pronunciation is most correct in Brazil; 2) that using [x], [χ] and [h] in place of [ʁ] is substandard; or 3) that [x], [χ] and [h] are really just a kind of R.
At the "end of the day," the fact is that a native English speaker hearing a Brazilian say the name Renzo in normal speech, hears "Henzo." I'm a native English speaker. That is what I hear. I've asked other English-speakers and that is what they hear as well. Therefore, it is correct to tell an English-speaker that the Brazilian pronunciation of Renzo is approximately Henzo. I don't know what a Portuguese hears when a Brazilian speaks. That is beside the point.
Furthermore, I went to the Wikipedia page on Portuguese dialects, thinking that might give more detail. It says:
"The pronunciation of syllable-initial and syllable-final r varies considerably with dialect. See Guttural R in Portuguese, for details. In summary, syllable-initial ⟨r⟩ and doubled ⟨rr⟩ are pronounced as a guttural [ʁ] in most cities in Portugal, but as a traditional trill [r] in rural Portugal. In Brazil, this sound is normally pronounced as an unvoiced guttural ([x], [χ] or [h]), which is also used for ⟨r⟩ at the end of syllables (except in the caipira dialect, which uses an alveolar approximant [ɹ]). ⟨r⟩ at the ends of words in Brazil is normally silent or barely pronounced."
I don't see how anyone can read this and come away with the conclusions that: 1) The [ʁ] pronunciation is most correct in Brazil; 2) that using [x], [χ] and [h] in place of [ʁ] is substandard; or 3) that [x], [χ] and [h] are really just a kind of R.
At the "end of the day," the fact is that a native English speaker hearing a Brazilian say the name Renzo in normal speech, hears "Henzo." I'm a native English speaker. That is what I hear. I've asked other English-speakers and that is what they hear as well. Therefore, it is correct to tell an English-speaker that the Brazilian pronunciation of Renzo is approximately Henzo. I don't know what a Portuguese hears when a Brazilian speaks. That is beside the point.
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Well, to me the pronunciation of "raça" there definitely sounds like a strong "H", but the pronunciation of "rua" seems closer to how I say "Wh-".
Perhaps part of the problem of perception here isn't just the exact pronunciation of Brazilian Portuguese, but also the difference between Australian and American English? Since Australian English is non-rhotic, perhaps that leads an person whose native dialect is Australian English to hear this sound from Brazilian Portuguese as being closer to "r" (or more distant from "h")than American English speakers do?
Perhaps part of the problem of perception here isn't just the exact pronunciation of Brazilian Portuguese, but also the difference between Australian and American English? Since Australian English is non-rhotic, perhaps that leads an person whose native dialect is Australian English to hear this sound from Brazilian Portuguese as being closer to "r" (or more distant from "h")than American English speakers do?
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