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Daividh
Gaia Euphoria? I guess you've never encountered someone who has "drawn down the moon" either naturally or through "chemical means". If you can find Drawing Down The Moon by (something) Adler and The Sacred Dance by Starhawk, read them. You'll understand (I think). I'll try to find other books you might want to look at (including a couple from Z Budapest (I think that's her name)).
Phyllis Sidhe Uaine
Gaia Euphoria? I guess you've never encountered someone who has "drawn down the moon" either naturally or through "chemical means". If you can find Drawing Down The Moon by (something) Adler and The Sacred Dance by Starhawk, read them. You'll understand (I think). I'll try to find other books you might want to look at (including a couple from Z Budapest (I think that's her name)).
Phyllis Sidhe Uaine
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Spiral Dance?
Hi, Phyllis . I think it's *The Spiral Dance* by Starhawk -- not *The Sacred Dance*. Although I could be wrong, as I'm sure I don't have every book on the Wiccan movement in my personal collection. :) I picked up a 1979 first-edition of Starhawk's book back in the early 80s. I agree with you that Starhawk is definitely one of the people to recommend on the subject of neopaganism.
I never got around to reading Margot Adler's *Drawing Down the Moon*. Interesting that this book was first published in the same year as Starhawk's. 1979 must've been a dawning year for the neopaganism movement in America.
-- Nanaea
Hi, Phyllis . I think it's *The Spiral Dance* by Starhawk -- not *The Sacred Dance*. Although I could be wrong, as I'm sure I don't have every book on the Wiccan movement in my personal collection. :) I picked up a 1979 first-edition of Starhawk's book back in the early 80s. I agree with you that Starhawk is definitely one of the people to recommend on the subject of neopaganism.
I never got around to reading Margot Adler's *Drawing Down the Moon*. Interesting that this book was first published in the same year as Starhawk's. 1979 must've been a dawning year for the neopaganism movement in America.
-- Nanaea
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Nanaea
Mea culpa, mea culpa. It is *The Spiral Dance* by Starhawk. I shoulda known since it is one of my textbooks.
As for neopaganism, it was around since the early part of the '70s, but mostly underground. I guess that 1979 was theyear it became "acceptable". I'll try to find a copy of the interview I have with one of Starhawk's teachers. He's been considered eccentric even among neopagans.
Phyllis
Mea culpa, mea culpa. It is *The Spiral Dance* by Starhawk. I shoulda known since it is one of my textbooks.
As for neopaganism, it was around since the early part of the '70s, but mostly underground. I guess that 1979 was theyear it became "acceptable". I'll try to find a copy of the interview I have with one of Starhawk's teachers. He's been considered eccentric even among neopagans.
Phyllis
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Cool deal! :) One thing I especially enjoyed in Starhawk's book, was her description of the "Taking Back the Night" ceremony held in San Francisco .
Isn't it interesting that so much of what is considered "New Age" today seems to have sprung out of San Francisco ? I mean, there was the hippy movement, and of course Anton LaVey was a San Franciscan. I sometimes wonder if San Francisco might be America's equivalent of Glastonbury -- which I found to be the New Age Mecca of England when I visited there.
I'll bet there's a ley line connecting both towns, or something. ;)
-- Nanaea
Isn't it interesting that so much of what is considered "New Age" today seems to have sprung out of San Francisco ? I mean, there was the hippy movement, and of course Anton LaVey was a San Franciscan. I sometimes wonder if San Francisco might be America's equivalent of Glastonbury -- which I found to be the New Age Mecca of England when I visited there.
I'll bet there's a ley line connecting both towns, or something. ;)
-- Nanaea
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Phyllis ,
I own (and have read) a number of books on both Wicca and pre-Christian Celtic religions, so I'm familiar with the terms. Once had a subscription to Green Egg, too.
Phyllis , let me preface the following by saying it is NOT aimed at YOU or any other individual on this board! I don't know your particular beliefs, nor I am a position to judge you as a person even if I did! However, it's been a tough day, so please indulge me in a little rant against "some" Wiccans:
While I respect almost all religions that don't feature wanton rock-throwing and unrestrained hate, I have developed a little bit of scepticism about the agenda (if not the practice) of some who follow Wicca.
It seems that many (if not most) Wiccans have a "cafeteria feminist" approach to doctrine, gladly scarfing up any and all beliefs that will validate their "I am Woman" and "men are pigs" and "matriarchal Europe was a feminist paradise before those patriarchal Indo-Europeans came invading" bias. Blah blah blah.
Now, altho I respect both for their devoutness and good works, I also have many problems with the "exclude-female" practices of both Catholicism and most of the Southern Baptist churches, and truly believe that the former at least will eventually and rightly be superseded by a "new" Catholicism, independent of Rome, that gives women full equality in the clergy. (My wife and I were both Catholic as kids, and she still attends Mass occasionally altho a practicing Protestant.)
However, both the Catholic and Baptist faith structures cited feature an acceptance of women that is in no way paralleled for men in many branches of Wicca. In such cases, about the only men who participate are gay and therefore no "threat" to the militants.
Sorry, but I believe the purpose of religion is to give us a benchmark and meaning for our lives while at the same time leading us to glorify God, in whatever aspect you perceive God. It's not simply to validate our own little prejudices.
The Mass is ended, go in peace. : )
I own (and have read) a number of books on both Wicca and pre-Christian Celtic religions, so I'm familiar with the terms. Once had a subscription to Green Egg, too.
Phyllis , let me preface the following by saying it is NOT aimed at YOU or any other individual on this board! I don't know your particular beliefs, nor I am a position to judge you as a person even if I did! However, it's been a tough day, so please indulge me in a little rant against "some" Wiccans:
While I respect almost all religions that don't feature wanton rock-throwing and unrestrained hate, I have developed a little bit of scepticism about the agenda (if not the practice) of some who follow Wicca.
It seems that many (if not most) Wiccans have a "cafeteria feminist" approach to doctrine, gladly scarfing up any and all beliefs that will validate their "I am Woman" and "men are pigs" and "matriarchal Europe was a feminist paradise before those patriarchal Indo-Europeans came invading" bias. Blah blah blah.
Now, altho I respect both for their devoutness and good works, I also have many problems with the "exclude-female" practices of both Catholicism and most of the Southern Baptist churches, and truly believe that the former at least will eventually and rightly be superseded by a "new" Catholicism, independent of Rome, that gives women full equality in the clergy. (My wife and I were both Catholic as kids, and she still attends Mass occasionally altho a practicing Protestant.)
However, both the Catholic and Baptist faith structures cited feature an acceptance of women that is in no way paralleled for men in many branches of Wicca. In such cases, about the only men who participate are gay and therefore no "threat" to the militants.
Sorry, but I believe the purpose of religion is to give us a benchmark and meaning for our lives while at the same time leading us to glorify God, in whatever aspect you perceive God. It's not simply to validate our own little prejudices.
The Mass is ended, go in peace. : )
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You made some good points, Daividh , and I'm sure Phyllis will be the first to agree that she's observed some of what you described. But I think you've let yourself open for a little lecture on the fact that there are *numerous* groups of Wicca, with varying practices and ideaologies. :)
And, I happen to know a few guys who call themselves Wiccan and who are definitely of the masculine, he-man variety. ;) In Wiccan ceremonies, they may represent The Horned One, while their female counterpart may represent The Goddess.
Reading the books and magazine articles isn't enough to give you a full perspective on the neo-pagan movement in America. You need to meet with and personally speak with a few neo-pagans to really get to know them. And, of course, neo-pagan groups can differ from region to region in this country, same as Christian groups can differ regionally. :)
-- Nanaea
And, I happen to know a few guys who call themselves Wiccan and who are definitely of the masculine, he-man variety. ;) In Wiccan ceremonies, they may represent The Horned One, while their female counterpart may represent The Goddess.
Reading the books and magazine articles isn't enough to give you a full perspective on the neo-pagan movement in America. You need to meet with and personally speak with a few neo-pagans to really get to know them. And, of course, neo-pagan groups can differ from region to region in this country, same as Christian groups can differ regionally. :)
-- Nanaea
1
One thing more... :)
"...about the only men who participate are gay and therefore no 'threat' to the militants."
@@@@ Have to add that I also know a few gay guys -- of various religious backgrounds -- who would NOT perceive themselves as being of "no threat" to anti-male, female Wiccan militants. And neither would you, if you'd met them, too. :)
I also know a few heterosexual guys who are whipped by their womenfolk. ;) (Not John , before you ask. :)
-- Nanaea
"...about the only men who participate are gay and therefore no 'threat' to the militants."
@@@@ Have to add that I also know a few gay guys -- of various religious backgrounds -- who would NOT perceive themselves as being of "no threat" to anti-male, female Wiccan militants. And neither would you, if you'd met them, too. :)
I also know a few heterosexual guys who are whipped by their womenfolk. ;) (Not John , before you ask. :)
-- Nanaea
1
Phyllis ,
I would've liked to have been there! One of the really fascinating things about Wicca is the vast range of elements available that "may" be relevant to a consistent belief structure. One of the really frustrating things is that there's so little solid to go on as to what shape the Old Religion actually took in various places and cultures, thanks to the ardent efforts of the early missionaries and later those fine and gentle folks who brought you The Burning Times.
As a person of recent old-country Celtic derivation, I often wonder how the modern Celtic nations would've turned out if the Christian missionaries hadn't ventured onto their shores 1,500 years ago. Would the later fortunes and life of these cultures been better or worse?
Had I been seaside with a hand grenade at the time of those first arrivals, the temptation would've been strong to pull the pin with my teeth John Wayne-style and pitch that sucker sidearm toward the beaching boat... : )
(Hey y'all, sorry to have been so infrequent in posting this week. Spent 2 full days in Illinois, and am currently in North Carolina to visit my grown kid. Will be PC-less starting now until Sunday night. Later!)
I would've liked to have been there! One of the really fascinating things about Wicca is the vast range of elements available that "may" be relevant to a consistent belief structure. One of the really frustrating things is that there's so little solid to go on as to what shape the Old Religion actually took in various places and cultures, thanks to the ardent efforts of the early missionaries and later those fine and gentle folks who brought you The Burning Times.
As a person of recent old-country Celtic derivation, I often wonder how the modern Celtic nations would've turned out if the Christian missionaries hadn't ventured onto their shores 1,500 years ago. Would the later fortunes and life of these cultures been better or worse?
Had I been seaside with a hand grenade at the time of those first arrivals, the temptation would've been strong to pull the pin with my teeth John Wayne-style and pitch that sucker sidearm toward the beaching boat... : )
(Hey y'all, sorry to have been so infrequent in posting this week. Spent 2 full days in Illinois, and am currently in North Carolina to visit my grown kid. Will be PC-less starting now until Sunday night. Later!)
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Daividh
If you could sorta forward your e-mail address to mine, I'll put you in touch with John Gleeson, a professor of mine who specializes in Celtic (mostly Irish) history and Irish language. I think he'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have about what he knows of pre-Christian Ireland (including pre-Celtic). Just be grateful you don't have to sit through his slide shows. :D
Phyllis
If you could sorta forward your e-mail address to mine, I'll put you in touch with John Gleeson, a professor of mine who specializes in Celtic (mostly Irish) history and Irish language. I think he'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have about what he knows of pre-Christian Ireland (including pre-Celtic). Just be grateful you don't have to sit through his slide shows. :D
Phyllis
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We have lots of fun, Phyllis . You can't successfully have a Christian married to a Satanist without both having a sense of fun. ;)
Sounds like you had an interesting class last Wednesday. You know, I wonder if one reason why a number of gays, rebels, freethinkers, and other societal outcasts have turned to neopaganism because that's one belief system that they find willing to accept them?
Daividh made the point that the purpose of religion is "not simply to validate our own little prejudices." Quite honestly, I have encountered more people from the mainstream religions using the Bible (or the Tanakh, or the Koran) to validate their own little prejudices, than ever I have encountered from among the neopagans.
-- Nanaea
Sounds like you had an interesting class last Wednesday. You know, I wonder if one reason why a number of gays, rebels, freethinkers, and other societal outcasts have turned to neopaganism because that's one belief system that they find willing to accept them?
Daividh made the point that the purpose of religion is "not simply to validate our own little prejudices." Quite honestly, I have encountered more people from the mainstream religions using the Bible (or the Tanakh, or the Koran) to validate their own little prejudices, than ever I have encountered from among the neopagans.
-- Nanaea
1
Few words about Greek pagans.
There are generally 3 broad pagan-types in contemporary Greece.
1. One group includes those who dont rally want to break off from Christian Orthodoxy. Instead they try to convince themselves and everyone else that the Orthodox Christianity has basically adopted most of its rituals and liturgy from pre-christianity. They argue, for example, that Easteris, for most Greeks, far more important a religious ceremony than, say, Christmas. As a matter of fact, Easter Mass owes a lot of its "direction" to ancient theater. Moreover they argue that various saints have assumed in folklore the role of ancinet Gods. For example, St Nicholas is protector of the sea, a la Poseidon.
2. A second group which is gaining in popularity has severed all links with Judeo-Christianity, and is trying to reenact ancient religious ceremonies in places like Mt Olympus. These folks take the Gods of Olympus literally. Tryphon Olympios, a Greek-Swedish university professor, has been quite active in this attempt. As is to be expected, there are already splinter religious groups. Wanna-be religious leaders are bickering about how religious mysteries and ceremonies should be properly executed, etc etc.
3. The third group also rejects monotheistic religions, as monotheism breeds totalitarianism. This view holds that in classical Greece religion was not "organized", there was nothing equivalent to the "Bible" or the "Koran" and Gods were mostly allegorical. Polytheism to them is essentially a matter of keeping an open mind in questions of ethics and philosophy. To this extent Athens was full of statues "to the unknown God". They hold that any attempt to today codify a "Greek pagan ritual" and to claim that it is "orthodox" would actually end up mimicking "non-pagan" religions.
There are generally 3 broad pagan-types in contemporary Greece.
1. One group includes those who dont rally want to break off from Christian Orthodoxy. Instead they try to convince themselves and everyone else that the Orthodox Christianity has basically adopted most of its rituals and liturgy from pre-christianity. They argue, for example, that Easteris, for most Greeks, far more important a religious ceremony than, say, Christmas. As a matter of fact, Easter Mass owes a lot of its "direction" to ancient theater. Moreover they argue that various saints have assumed in folklore the role of ancinet Gods. For example, St Nicholas is protector of the sea, a la Poseidon.
2. A second group which is gaining in popularity has severed all links with Judeo-Christianity, and is trying to reenact ancient religious ceremonies in places like Mt Olympus. These folks take the Gods of Olympus literally. Tryphon Olympios, a Greek-Swedish university professor, has been quite active in this attempt. As is to be expected, there are already splinter religious groups. Wanna-be religious leaders are bickering about how religious mysteries and ceremonies should be properly executed, etc etc.
3. The third group also rejects monotheistic religions, as monotheism breeds totalitarianism. This view holds that in classical Greece religion was not "organized", there was nothing equivalent to the "Bible" or the "Koran" and Gods were mostly allegorical. Polytheism to them is essentially a matter of keeping an open mind in questions of ethics and philosophy. To this extent Athens was full of statues "to the unknown God". They hold that any attempt to today codify a "Greek pagan ritual" and to claim that it is "orthodox" would actually end up mimicking "non-pagan" religions.
1
Congratulations for your presentation. However, I would say that I not a pagan, meaning vulgar peasant. I would like to know who you are and where you are.
with regards
Tryphon Olympios
with regards
Tryphon Olympios
1