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Help[Facts] Lucifer vs. Satan
I've heard some people say that they're not one and the same person. What do the expert name etymologists have to say about this? I mean, how a Latin name like Lucifer could've found its way into a Hebrew script... I also wonder how old both names are, btw. From which century do they date?
I also wonder if there have been male persons named Lucifer in the past... I mean, there have been people named Jude or Judas (he who betrayed Jesus), so if people are willing to name his child that name, there must be some Lucifers around... no? Did you hear of any cases?
I just spotted a teenage girl on the Internet called Lucifer, and she was Asian... it was funny to see that name on a girl. :-)
Greetings,
Lucille
I also wonder if there have been male persons named Lucifer in the past... I mean, there have been people named Jude or Judas (he who betrayed Jesus), so if people are willing to name his child that name, there must be some Lucifers around... no? Did you hear of any cases?
I just spotted a teenage girl on the Internet called Lucifer, and she was Asian... it was funny to see that name on a girl. :-)
Greetings,
Lucille
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Replies
Actually, in Isaiah (in the Bible), Satan is called "the morning star" (which is the meaning of Lucifer) and when he was an angel, the Bible mentions that his name was Lucifer.
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I recall the passage in Isaiah, but I never remember the actual name "Lucifer" being anywhere in the Bible. What Bible translation do you use?
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Lucifer means 'light bringer.' Only two angels are ever mentioned by name in the Bible-Michael and Gabriel. Lucifer in the Bible was just a title. Milton got it from that verse, but applied it as a name instead of just a title.
That's where the confusion lies.
-Mina
That's where the confusion lies.
-Mina
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Satan occurs first - in 1 Chronicles 21. Satan is from the Hebrew meaning 'adversary' from the word meaning 'to plot against'.
In Isaiah 14, the king of Babylon sarcastically refers to Satan as 'the Light-Bearer' (Latin Lux or Luc 'light' + fer 'to bear') or the Day Star, (ie. the planet Venus which is visible in the morning sky) 'fallen from heaven' ie. fallen from power. To see how clear this is, it reads (I use the Basic English Bible - too impatiant with the others) "How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies!" - you can clearly see he was taking the mick ;o) In the Vulgate this was translated to "Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" and voila, you get the basis of the concept of 'Lucifer' as a person.
That verse was partly quoted by Jesus in Luke 10:18 where he says "I was watching for Satan, falling from heaven like a star" so from the time of Jerome (core writer of the Vulgate, Roman with about 1 year of Hebrew study under his belt ;o) onwards Satan as Lucifer was an accepted concept.
As it was originally used, it was a reference not to a person at all, simply the phenomenon of Venus in the morning sky and a handy way to chide 'my how you've fallen'. Personally, I doubt seriously anyone saying Satan and Lucifer are two different demons has even read a Bible, let alone studied the many incarnations of it.
Devon
In Isaiah 14, the king of Babylon sarcastically refers to Satan as 'the Light-Bearer' (Latin Lux or Luc 'light' + fer 'to bear') or the Day Star, (ie. the planet Venus which is visible in the morning sky) 'fallen from heaven' ie. fallen from power. To see how clear this is, it reads (I use the Basic English Bible - too impatiant with the others) "How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies!" - you can clearly see he was taking the mick ;o) In the Vulgate this was translated to "Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" and voila, you get the basis of the concept of 'Lucifer' as a person.
That verse was partly quoted by Jesus in Luke 10:18 where he says "I was watching for Satan, falling from heaven like a star" so from the time of Jerome (core writer of the Vulgate, Roman with about 1 year of Hebrew study under his belt ;o) onwards Satan as Lucifer was an accepted concept.
As it was originally used, it was a reference not to a person at all, simply the phenomenon of Venus in the morning sky and a handy way to chide 'my how you've fallen'. Personally, I doubt seriously anyone saying Satan and Lucifer are two different demons has even read a Bible, let alone studied the many incarnations of it.
Devon
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I was thrown by that little phrase, but thanks. Now I've learned something to toss into a conversation with my Scouser brother-in-law:
"take the mick/mickey/michael -- vb. British -- to mock, deride, poke fun at. These expressions are milder versions of 'take the piss.' Unbeknownst to most users, they employ rhyming slang: Mickey is short for a mythical 'Mickey Bliss,' providing the rhyme for 'piss.' 'Michael' is a humorous variant.
"take the mick/mickey/michael -- vb. British -- to mock, deride, poke fun at. These expressions are milder versions of 'take the piss.' Unbeknownst to most users, they employ rhyming slang: Mickey is short for a mythical 'Mickey Bliss,' providing the rhyme for 'piss.' 'Michael' is a humorous variant.
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LOL Can you tell I gave birth to my youngest within earshot of St. Mary's bells?
Yep, it's east London through and through, though everyone says it really. Even at 36 I can't say 'taking the piss' or me mam would smack me ;o)
Devon
Yep, it's east London through and through, though everyone says it really. Even at 36 I can't say 'taking the piss' or me mam would smack me ;o)
Devon
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Lucifer in Latin is the Bringer of Light, in other words the morning star, aka the planet Venus. And in the book of Isaiah, I think (I'm pretty rusty!), there's a beautiful but obscure bit about how art thou fallen, Son of the Morning. So, once people started mythologising about fallen angels turning into devils in mid-air (not an old-testament notion), the obvious name for one of them was Lucifer, the herald of dawn.
A Hebrew script is exactly where you'd expect to find a Latin name or two, once Christianity became established in the Roman empire. The texts underwent considerable reworking ... As for poor old Judas, his name is a Greek form of Judah, respectable as can be! And, if you want to name your son after Jesus but you're not Spanish, you can always go for Joshua.
Dating the Old Testament texts is a minefield. Dating the names in them, more so. I advise you, perfectly seriously, to read a couple of entries on the subject in a couple of reference books in your local library - preferably one from your own preferred version of Christianity or Judaism, and one from another. By then you will have learnt enough to decide that, if consistency and accuracy don't worry God, they're probably not an issue. (Just as a quick example - when the Babylonian captivity ended, suddenly a whole bunch of 'ancient' texts were 'found' lying around in the Temple. How convenient is that, on a purely human scale?)
Are Lucifer and Satan the same person? Wow. Are Cinderella's and the Sleeping Beauty's fairy godmothers one and the same? Personally, I don't expect to meet any of them, in this world or the next, but that's just me. Believe what you like, and don't let etymology stand in your way! (Unless, of course, you get hooked on the sheer, exhilarating fun of chasing knowledge for its own sake. That's the first prize!)
All the best
A Hebrew script is exactly where you'd expect to find a Latin name or two, once Christianity became established in the Roman empire. The texts underwent considerable reworking ... As for poor old Judas, his name is a Greek form of Judah, respectable as can be! And, if you want to name your son after Jesus but you're not Spanish, you can always go for Joshua.
Dating the Old Testament texts is a minefield. Dating the names in them, more so. I advise you, perfectly seriously, to read a couple of entries on the subject in a couple of reference books in your local library - preferably one from your own preferred version of Christianity or Judaism, and one from another. By then you will have learnt enough to decide that, if consistency and accuracy don't worry God, they're probably not an issue. (Just as a quick example - when the Babylonian captivity ended, suddenly a whole bunch of 'ancient' texts were 'found' lying around in the Temple. How convenient is that, on a purely human scale?)
Are Lucifer and Satan the same person? Wow. Are Cinderella's and the Sleeping Beauty's fairy godmothers one and the same? Personally, I don't expect to meet any of them, in this world or the next, but that's just me. Believe what you like, and don't let etymology stand in your way! (Unless, of course, you get hooked on the sheer, exhilarating fun of chasing knowledge for its own sake. That's the first prize!)
All the best
1
According to the Judeo-Christian there is only one true devil, whose name is Satan. A devil is a thing, whereas Satan is a name. As for Lucifer, this became an associated name of Satan because of the misunderstanding Anneza explained. Venus, along with all the other planets, use to be thought to simply be other stars, and being so bright and being seen around dawn the 'star' was named Lucifer.
So truly Lucifer and Venus are one in the same, and Lucifer isn't actually Satan/the devil or a previous angel of god.
I have heard the name Lucious used modernly, and in the movie Gladiator... I think that was the movie.
A lot of ancient religions, or religions considered to be 'pagan' have many devils/demons that represent different sins etc. and have many different names.
~SD
So truly Lucifer and Venus are one in the same, and Lucifer isn't actually Satan/the devil or a previous angel of god.
I have heard the name Lucious used modernly, and in the movie Gladiator... I think that was the movie.
A lot of ancient religions, or religions considered to be 'pagan' have many devils/demons that represent different sins etc. and have many different names.
~SD
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