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Help[Facts] I doubted tremendously of...
in reply to a message by Cleveland Kent Evans
a direct adaptation of the Welsh name, because of the history of Emlyn as given name in Welsh (place name used as middle and first name after 1800s).
As usual, your information is very illustrative and useful. Thank you very much.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
As usual, your information is very illustrative and useful. Thank you very much.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
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Replies
I'm glad I could help. :)
Do you have a reference to the fact of Emlyn being a place name only used as a given name in Wales after 1800? References such as Withycombe or Hanks, Hardcastle, and Hodges don't mention a place, but only the theories that it could come from Latin Aemilianus, or perhaps from an Old Celtic name which was "Latinized" as Aemilianus.
I do notice that Welsh Personal Names by Heini Gruffudd does mention a place, Newcastle Emlyn, in Dyfed, Wales, but it also says "could be from Aemilianus".
As an American, these entries seemed to imply Emlyn was in use before 1800, but I certainly assume that as a European closer to continental references that you are probably right and it's just one of many "Welsh" names introduced in the 19th century. :)
Do you have a reference to the fact of Emlyn being a place name only used as a given name in Wales after 1800? References such as Withycombe or Hanks, Hardcastle, and Hodges don't mention a place, but only the theories that it could come from Latin Aemilianus, or perhaps from an Old Celtic name which was "Latinized" as Aemilianus.
I do notice that Welsh Personal Names by Heini Gruffudd does mention a place, Newcastle Emlyn, in Dyfed, Wales, but it also says "could be from Aemilianus".
As an American, these entries seemed to imply Emlyn was in use before 1800, but I certainly assume that as a European closer to continental references that you are probably right and it's just one of many "Welsh" names introduced in the 19th century. :)
1
My information comes from Iain O'hAnnaidh, a very very very reliable source in Welsh (he's a native Welsh speaker, a philologist in Celtic languages and a researcher about Welsh language and culture) and I trust him completely.
He had a website running, but now it is down.
http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_enwau/enwau_bedydd_cymraeg_geiriadur_cyflwyniad_2525e.htm
http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_enwau/enwau_bedydd_cymraeg_geiriadur_1_1265e.htm
http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_enwau/enwau_bedydd_cymraeg_geiriadur_2_2524e.htm
However, I had press his information about Welsh names and I can copy it here:
"(...)
PLACE NAMES AS FIRST NAMES
Some names from toponyms (e.g. Hirwaun) are not usually used as a first Christian name. They occur as a second element in the name and indicate a connection with a particular locality. This is also the case with certain saints names (e.g. Tegla, from the village of Llandegla).
(...)
PLACE NAMES AS FORENAMES.
Although not common, there are instances of place names becoming forenames. This practice dates from the 1800s, among ministers and preachers. Because so many had the same English names (David Jones, John Williams, and so on) it was necessary to add something to distinguish themselves from their namesakes (Of course, they could have changed their names completely, and given themselves Welsh names, but his would have appeared odd or lunatic in those days).
Generally, people often acquired a place-name tag to makes themselves more identifiable. It could be the place of origin, or the place in which a minister had settled and with which he had become associated.
He had a website running, but now it is down.
http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_enwau/enwau_bedydd_cymraeg_geiriadur_cyflwyniad_2525e.htm
http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_enwau/enwau_bedydd_cymraeg_geiriadur_1_1265e.htm
http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_enwau/enwau_bedydd_cymraeg_geiriadur_2_2524e.htm
However, I had press his information about Welsh names and I can copy it here:
"(...)
PLACE NAMES AS FIRST NAMES
Some names from toponyms (e.g. Hirwaun) are not usually used as a first Christian name. They occur as a second element in the name and indicate a connection with a particular locality. This is also the case with certain saints names (e.g. Tegla, from the village of Llandegla).
(...)
PLACE NAMES AS FORENAMES.
Although not common, there are instances of place names becoming forenames. This practice dates from the 1800s, among ministers and preachers. Because so many had the same English names (David Jones, John Williams, and so on) it was necessary to add something to distinguish themselves from their namesakes (Of course, they could have changed their names completely, and given themselves Welsh names, but his would have appeared odd or lunatic in those days).
Generally, people often acquired a place-name tag to makes themselves more identifiable. It could be the place of origin, or the place in which a minister had settled and with which he had become associated.
1
Thank you so much!
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