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Help[Facts] Re: Joshua
in reply to a message by Andy ;—)
The problem I have is the name Joshua and jesus have two different meanings. EXAMPLE
HEBREW,... GREEK,... ENGLISH,... MEANING OF THE NAME
YESHUA,... IESOUS,....... JESUS,....... HE WILL SAVE
YAHSHUA,...... ? ......... JOSHUA,...... YAH OR YHWH IS SALVATION
I research my this from the strongs and strongest strongs exhaustive concordance of the bible.I can not find how they came up with IESOUS IE-SOUS .What does IE mean in greek? and what does SOUS mean in greek? Can you help me? Thanks so much.
HEBREW,... GREEK,... ENGLISH,... MEANING OF THE NAME
YESHUA,... IESOUS,....... JESUS,....... HE WILL SAVE
YAHSHUA,...... ? ......... JOSHUA,...... YAH OR YHWH IS SALVATION
I research my this from the strongs and strongest strongs exhaustive concordance of the bible.I can not find how they came up with IESOUS IE-SOUS .What does IE mean in greek? and what does SOUS mean in greek? Can you help me? Thanks so much.
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No, the name IESOUS does not mean anything in Greek, nor do any of ist possible elements. IESOUS is just a transcription of the original Hebrew name. This was YEHOSHUA in the Hebrew bible,and there is also the short form JESHUA. It is not clear, whether the syllable HO in YEHOSHUA is part of the name of God or belongs to the verb „yasha’“ (save, help), but the first possibility seems more likely to me. You will find names starting with the name of God in different forms like „yeho“, „yo“, „yau“, „ya“ or „ye“ (in English bibles usually spelled with a J).
So I believe when the translaters of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek came to JOSHUA (YEHOSHUA), they took the short form YESHUA instead (the same happened to YEHOSHAFAT, an Israelite king, 1. Kings 15,24, who became YOSAFAT in the Greek Old Testament). Now the step from YESHUA to IESOUS is easy: YE became IE, SH became S (this happened almost with all SH names), the final A was dropped, and the typically Greek ending S was added instead. This final S you will find in names like THOMAS (Aramaic THOMA) or JUDAS (Hebrew YEHUDA).
So I believe when the translaters of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek came to JOSHUA (YEHOSHUA), they took the short form YESHUA instead (the same happened to YEHOSHAFAT, an Israelite king, 1. Kings 15,24, who became YOSAFAT in the Greek Old Testament). Now the step from YESHUA to IESOUS is easy: YE became IE, SH became S (this happened almost with all SH names), the final A was dropped, and the typically Greek ending S was added instead. This final S you will find in names like THOMAS (Aramaic THOMA) or JUDAS (Hebrew YEHUDA).
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As I understand the LXX translaters out of fear of profaning the name of YHWH , were led to translate YHWH as kurios or "lord" and they continued this tradition by using the vowels of adonay with the consonants of YHWH.The misreading of this convention led to the misunderstanding of the name of YHWH as YEHOVAH.My question is this what makes the name YEHoVAH wrong? Please help me out, you seem very smart in this area . thank you so much
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Yehova?
You are right: In the Septuagint (LXX) you will find "Kyrios", where there is YHWH in the Hebrew bible. This is due to the fear of misusing the name of God. So the Jews (I don't know from when on) started saying "adonai" instead, which translates "the Lord". "Adonai" itself appears in the bible as well (for instance 1. Kings 3,10) and always refers to God. Now to make sure that YHWH would always be pronounced "adonai", the Jews at one time (when?) started adding the vowels of "adonai" to the name of God YHWH.
Now you must know that the initial "a" is not a real A, but a so called "chatef patach". This is a very short A, related to the very short Eh called "Shwa". This is why in JEHOVA it's not an A, but an E (a short Eh actually by sound). The final I in "adonai" is actually not a vowel, but a consonant, so it does not appear here. So if you put the consonants YHWA together with the vowels of "adonai" (e-o-a), you get something like JEHOVA. I think it was some medieval monks who didn't understand this and thus produced JEHOVA.
This is not very exact, I must admit, so if you need more accurate information, I'll try to find out. I collected this from what I still had in mind from my studies 20 years ago. Sorry.
Andy ;—)
You are right: In the Septuagint (LXX) you will find "Kyrios", where there is YHWH in the Hebrew bible. This is due to the fear of misusing the name of God. So the Jews (I don't know from when on) started saying "adonai" instead, which translates "the Lord". "Adonai" itself appears in the bible as well (for instance 1. Kings 3,10) and always refers to God. Now to make sure that YHWH would always be pronounced "adonai", the Jews at one time (when?) started adding the vowels of "adonai" to the name of God YHWH.
Now you must know that the initial "a" is not a real A, but a so called "chatef patach". This is a very short A, related to the very short Eh called "Shwa". This is why in JEHOVA it's not an A, but an E (a short Eh actually by sound). The final I in "adonai" is actually not a vowel, but a consonant, so it does not appear here. So if you put the consonants YHWA together with the vowels of "adonai" (e-o-a), you get something like JEHOVA. I think it was some medieval monks who didn't understand this and thus produced JEHOVA.
This is not very exact, I must admit, so if you need more accurate information, I'll try to find out. I collected this from what I still had in mind from my studies 20 years ago. Sorry.
Andy ;—)
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I would like it if you can find out more on about the name jehova and how did the "jeh" sound come in. Instead of the "yah" sound and what vowels should it sound like instead of(e-o-a)? Maybe(yod-o-a)if possible thanks .
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I'm not sure I got your question now. I thought I had got the vowel part pretty straight, so what exactly is it you want to know?
Andy ;—)
Andy ;—)
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I guess I really have trouble understanding how a name can have two differnt meanings? I keep hearing that yehshua is the same as yahshua, But "yehshua" means(he will save or he is salvation) and "yahshua" means(yhwh is salvation).So there for my question was. What does "yeh" mean? and what does "yah" mean? Were some of the apostles calling our savior yehshua? and some of the others calling him yahshua?In the ancient world a name was not merely a label but the meaning of the name was virtually equivalent to whosoever or whatsoever bore it(1Sa25:25).Giving a name was tantamount to owning or controlling it(Ge1:5,8,10;19-20;2Sa12:28)Changing the name could mean a promotion(Ge17:5;32:28)or a demotion(2Ki23:34-35;24:17);and blotting it out or cutting it off meant that it was destroyed(2Ki14:27;Isa14:22;Zep1:4;cfPs83:4).I do hope this will help you understand what I am saying. with respect mike.
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It's not so much the vowels that count in Hebrew names, it's the consonants. And now for the Y (Yud), it can have different meanings or functions respectively:
It can be short for the Name of God (YHWH), no matter if it's an A or an E that goes with it.
It can also be part of a verbal root: yasha'(Yud-Shin-Ayin) means "save".
It can be part of the Hebrew conjugation system: Take the simple verb katav (Kaph-Tav-Beth), which means "write". "He will write" is "yichtav" (in biblical Hebrew this can also mean: "he writes" or "he has written" as there was no strict system of tenses like in modern Hebrew). The "he" itself does not appear, but is part of the grammatical form (like in Latin).
Now Yeshua: the original form of the name is YEHOSHUA. There is no agreement as to whether the HO belongs to YE or to SHUA.
Let's say it's YEHO-SHUA, then YEHO would represent the Name of God, and SHUA would be short for YESHA ("salvation") > "YHWH is salvation"
Let's say it's YE-HOSHUA, then YE will take the YHWH part, and HO belongs to the save/salvation part. Verbs with an initial Y often create the HO syllable in a certain grammatical case called Hiphil. "Hoshia'" translates "he saves/has saved". It can also mean "save!" (imperative), as you get in "Hosianna!" ("Do save!").
And now there is even a third possibility (usually not regarded as very probable): Some say, there is no YHWH in the name at all. In the bible you will find the form "yehoschia'" (beside "yoshia", which is the usual form, comparable to the "yichtav" mentioned above), the tense is called "imperfect" and can be translated either "he saves / saved / will save".
Now I suppose that those who translate YEHOSHUA "he saves", have this very special grammatical form in mind, but I'm not sure.
I would think that the friends of Jesus called him Yeshua. But a variation of names did occur a lot, even with the same person (like nicknames today), but this didn't touch the identity of person and name, I think.
Does this answer your question(s)? I'm afraid it's a bit complicated if you don't know Hebrew.
Andy ;—)
It can be short for the Name of God (YHWH), no matter if it's an A or an E that goes with it.
It can also be part of a verbal root: yasha'(Yud-Shin-Ayin) means "save".
It can be part of the Hebrew conjugation system: Take the simple verb katav (Kaph-Tav-Beth), which means "write". "He will write" is "yichtav" (in biblical Hebrew this can also mean: "he writes" or "he has written" as there was no strict system of tenses like in modern Hebrew). The "he" itself does not appear, but is part of the grammatical form (like in Latin).
Now Yeshua: the original form of the name is YEHOSHUA. There is no agreement as to whether the HO belongs to YE or to SHUA.
Let's say it's YEHO-SHUA, then YEHO would represent the Name of God, and SHUA would be short for YESHA ("salvation") > "YHWH is salvation"
Let's say it's YE-HOSHUA, then YE will take the YHWH part, and HO belongs to the save/salvation part. Verbs with an initial Y often create the HO syllable in a certain grammatical case called Hiphil. "Hoshia'" translates "he saves/has saved". It can also mean "save!" (imperative), as you get in "Hosianna!" ("Do save!").
And now there is even a third possibility (usually not regarded as very probable): Some say, there is no YHWH in the name at all. In the bible you will find the form "yehoschia'" (beside "yoshia", which is the usual form, comparable to the "yichtav" mentioned above), the tense is called "imperfect" and can be translated either "he saves / saved / will save".
Now I suppose that those who translate YEHOSHUA "he saves", have this very special grammatical form in mind, but I'm not sure.
I would think that the friends of Jesus called him Yeshua. But a variation of names did occur a lot, even with the same person (like nicknames today), but this didn't touch the identity of person and name, I think.
Does this answer your question(s)? I'm afraid it's a bit complicated if you don't know Hebrew.
Andy ;—)
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Andy thanks for all your help I understand that you say that those who translate YEHSHUA "he saves",have this very grammatical form in mind, but you are not sure. His name is Dr.James Strong (LL.D.,S.T.D)devoted 35 years of his life to the creation of his concordance. This is the same person that translates YAHSHUA "Yahweh is salvation" in his concordance. In acts 4:12"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved".I know that the freinds of Joshua called him by his true name Yahshua. thanks again for your input
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